Aysha Khan has been a Venture Supervisor with EXMNA for the previous 5 years, together with engaged on the Normalizing Dissent tour that introduced Ex-Muslim views to varsity campuses all through the US and Canada. Rising up in a reasonable Pakistani Muslim family, Aysha struggled with reconciling the rights and freedoms afforded to her as citizen of a Western secular nation, with the restrictive and out of date “rights” and roles prescribed to her within the Qur’an (particularly within the areas of marriage, divorce, journey, inheritance, courtroom testimony, and bodily autonomy). She found EXMNA on a Reddit thread and shortly related with different ex-Muslims who supported her by means of her journey of leaving Islam. In her spare time, Aysha enjoys making an attempt new recipes, studying and usually being an introvert.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: At present, we’re right here with Aysha Khan from Ex-Muslims of North America. So, the large query: many councils within the final 15 years have popped up, particularly in Germany and the U.Okay. Quite a lot of this emerged from the web milieu, significantly with the New Atheist motion, Firebrand Atheist motion, Militant Atheist motion. Males, sometimes had extra monetary freedom and mobility, which is why they had been usually the faces of it. So, what’s the standing of this motion in North America now? How is the neighborhood trying? What are their issues?
Aysha Khan: Oh man, that may be a exhausting query to reply. Are you speaking about social or political temperature?
Jacobsen: Social temperature, illustration, as a result of there’s one of many greatest—most likely the most important—on-line platforms, Atheist Republic, got here from a man out of Iran. Armin Navabi, there’s a man there with a tragic upbringing, and there’s that motion popping out of Iran. [Ed. He’s in Vancouver now.] I’ve written with him earlier than. It’s a strong story. But, there are various ex-Muslim girls whose tales are instructed. I don’t suppose they’re instructed as a lot, not less than in North America. In that case, then it’s occurred extra just lately than on the outset. So, by way of the social local weather round demographics and the way neighborhood issues change with demographics, who’s coming ahead as ex-Muslim or former Muslim?
Khan: That’s a tough query to reply. Muslims are usually not a monolith, and neither are ex-Muslims. We now have many political leanings, so it’s exhausting to say precisely what we really feel. Moreover, EXMNA has moved away from help communities, making it tougher to trace precisely how our members really feel as a result of we’re not monitoring these areas anymore. They turned too massive and unwieldy for us to handle, so we shut that half down and centered particularly on advocacy. So, I can’t say precisely. Sure, it’s exhausting to reply that query, however by way of illustration, I’ll say that after I first left Islam formally about ten years in the past, the one ex-Muslims I noticed had been males from South Asia or the Center East. Now, I see extra ex-Muslim millennials born outdoors of Muslim nations, like North America and plenty of extra girls on the scene. I’ve seen much more ex-Muslim girls who’ve YouTube channels, make TikTok movies, harness the facility of social media, and are unafraid. Ex-Muslim males have loved a sure diploma of safety as a result of they’re males, however for girls, it’s a lot tougher as a result of the social strain to adapt is way better. So, seeing a younger lady, born as a part of the Muslim diaspora, come out may be very highly effective for me. I’m particularly speaking about Sarah Haider, our former govt director. Seeing her was inspirational. By studying her e-book, the one that satisfied me probably the most to depart Islam was Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I learn Christopher Hitchens first, which opened my thoughts a bit of, however I wanted somebody I may relate to extra, and her e-book helped usher me by means of that course of.
Jacobsen: How is the advocacy work advancing? Is it extra centered on coverage, political, or social causes?
Khan: It’s extra socio-political causes. We did extra coverage work previously, however the pandemic, sadly, slowed down a lot of our efforts. Many organizations felt that ache level, and now we’ve moved, steadily transferring in the direction of changing into the specialists within the space of ex-Muslim advocacy. So, we’re leaning into assembly with congressional representatives, speaking so much concerning the plight of ex-Muslims, each within the U.S. and, extra importantly, overseas. We take pleasure in many freedoms right here in North America, the place we have now the safety of the authorized system in our favour. That’s not the case for ex-Muslims in different elements of the world, particularly in Muslim-majority nations. We’re working with congressional representatives who’ve shut relationships with Muslim-majority nations the place there are high-profile instances and asking them to place strain on these nations to deal with the arrest, imprisonment, or exile of prisoners of conscience. We’ve met with Fb, which was most likely crucial assembly that we had on the Hill, the place we labored with the congressional consultant’s workplace to get Fb to acknowledge that shutting down neighborhood teams centered on ex-Muslims and ex-Muslim points was a violation of free speech. They had been bending to the strain from Islamic nations, who mentioned that most of these teams had been ‘blasphemous,’ and the individuals who had been a part of them had been apostates, and due to this fact, their membership in it was punishable beneath their penal codes. Fb is an American firm or an organization primarily based within the U.S., so we are attempting to lean into serving to governments and personal corporations acknowledge their position in supporting freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and freedom of faith. We’ve additionally supplied feedback to U.N. stories on freedom of faith and feedback to State Division stories. So, that’s the subsequent section of EXMNA’s work: making an attempt to assist affect, form, and inform coverage.
Jacobsen: And taking a look at Pew Analysis, the variety of Muslims rising up in Muslim houses, raised Muslim, who depart might be a few quarter. That’s widespread amongst many religions, however because the numbers of the inhabitants of Muslims in the USA develop, so too will the variety of ex-Muslims, most likely much more so with the benefit with which you’ve these on-line teams. So, how do you preemptively attain out to those that is likely to be questioning and searching for solutions to their ideas and emotions?
Khan: Sure, that’s an excellent query. I might argue that the quantity might be better as a result of that quantity represents those that determine as ex-Muslims. Even admitting to your self privately that you simply not consider in Islam is a scary notion. There could also be elements of Islam that reasonable Muslims could not agree with and turn out to be “cafeteria” Muslims. So, for my part, the variety of ex-Muslims quoted by Pew may be very conservative. However plenty of our outreach, our target market, is anybody who understands how restrictive a faith Islam is and understands that it deserves as a lot criticism as another faith. And so, plenty of our work occurs by means of social media. We now have a improbable supervisor for our social media platforms who works very exhausting at placing collectively posts and memes. We now have a e-newsletter that we revived. We welcome folks to come back to our web site, ex-Muslims.org, and join it, the place we collect articles on individuals who have skilled persecution for leaving Islam. And in addition, we provide commentary on plenty of topical points. In order that’s mainly, we’re making an attempt to maneuver with the occasions, whereas earlier than, we had been principally centered on constructing a supportive neighborhood for individuals who left Islam. We’ve carried out a improbable job of that. We spent ten years doing that, however now we’re searching on the horizon and making an attempt to realize larger and higher issues. We acknowledge that social media is a large a part of that. So, we’re placing efforts into making movies, posts, and memes—even a few of these are hilarious and making an attempt to look forward and see what’s within the zeitgeist and get as many views on our work as doable.
Jacobsen: What are the best types of bringing folks into the fold in order that they really feel snug and secure inside a neighborhood, even whether it is a web-based neighborhood alone?
Khan: Sure. So, our group focuses on individuals who have already left Islam and identifiy as ex-Muslim atheists. Our mandate doesn’t cowl offering help to people who find themselves questioning although we welcome dialogue with them. We’re centered on critiquing of Islam, understanding or perceptions of what they suppose Islam is versus what Islam really says. So, we quote instantly from the Quran, authenticated Hadith, and the Prophet’s life, comparable to his sayings and teachings.
Jacobsen: Do you continue to get many emails from people in tough circumstances, perhaps in Pakistan or related locations?
Khan: Daily. I just lately acquired an electronic mail from a gentleman in southern Iraq who’s an atheist. His household suspects he’s and has threatened to report him to the authorities. He’s asking for assist to come back to both the U.S. or Canada. These are heartbreaking tales; I obtain them a number of occasions every week, usually with terrible photos and hyperlinks to information articles. It’s horrible. It’s a reminder of how fortunate I’m to dwell in a rustic that respects my proper to freedom from faith as a result of most individuals neglect that these points are two sides of the identical coin: freedom of and from faith. Sure, it’s exhausting work, nevertheless it’s extraordinarily rewarding.
Jacobsen: With better illustration of ladies’s experiences of popping out and becoming a member of these communities, is there an ex-Muslim girls’s basis or group? Is that this an concept that is likely to be an excellent proposal if it doesn’t exist?
Khan: Are you saying this due to the chance of such a company coming to fruition?
Jacobsen: It looks like a spot. With elevated illustration of ladies from numerous backgrounds, it is likely to be value contemplating a solidarity basis for girls popping out of those circumstances from all backgrounds. As an example, I just lately interviewed the U.N. Girls’s Nationwide Committee, Japan president. She talked about that since Japan is taken into account a developed nation, their funds aren’t centered on Japan, although Japan has gender inequalities. They collect funds throughout the nation and ship them to much less developed nations for gender equality efforts. Whereas this is smart, it’s additionally disappointing. Might one thing be much like offering help, assets, and shared experiences, letting folks know they aren’t alone, particularly in a gendered means?
Khan: Sure, we perceive the necessity for it, however we don’t have any plans for that, nor do I do know of any group that exists particularly serving the wants of ex-Muslim atheist girls. However sure, it’s wanted.
Jacobsen: I’ll depart that for the historical past books. We’ll see.
Khan: Sure.
Jacobsen: What type of advocacy do you discover simplest relating to social causes? What ones don’t work? In different phrases, folks studying this don’t do this; it’s a waste of time. What ones do work? Individuals studying this do this.
Khan: Oh, that’s such an excellent query, however I don’t suppose I’m certified to reply that as a result of I’ve not been concerned in these efforts lengthy sufficient to know what’s or just isn’t working. However, from my quick time on this place full-time, our most talked about and viral work is the movies we create and the humorous memes. It speaks to folks’s consideration spans; folks need one thing quick and digestible. They aren’t considering listening to a long-winded sob story. They need you to get to the purpose, which has been exhausting as a result of this challenge may be very near all of us on this group. We would like to have the ability to speak about it intellectually and in nice element, however we’re discovering increasingly that individuals need fast, simple, get to the underside line, and inform me why I ought to care with probably the most direct doable factors of proof. It’s a must to tailor your message; it must be a soundbite. That’s what’s working, sadly, nevertheless it relies on who your viewers is. Older viewers members recognize the element and nuance, however for EXMNA, most of our viewers or beneficiaries are millennials and youthful, so we should tailor our messaging to them.
Jacobsen: Each neighborhood has issues. What are the issues throughout the ex-Muslim neighborhood? I’m not taking this as a monolith; I perceive.
Khan:, I’m pausing as a result of I can’t level to anybody factor. We now have variations in our takes on the battle within the Center East, Gaza, and Israel. We had that with the 2020 election, and we had that with the Black Lives Matter motion, so it’s exhausting to say what the most important ache factors or factors of competition throughout the neighborhood are. It reveals that ex-Muslims are as diversified as anybody else. We come from all walks of life, all revenue ranges, and all racial and ethnic backgrounds, and that variety carries into this neighborhood. It’s exhausting to say. I can’t consider anybody single ideological challenge that all of us disagree on. All of us reject Islam and acknowledge its absurdity, and that’s what binds us collectively. The whole lot else is reflective of society at massive.
Jacobsen: Are there any makes an attempt to take ex-Muslims as a class of anti-Islam and use it as a political token? Are there any folks cynically making an attempt to try this?
Khan: Throughout the neighborhood or outdoors?
Jacobsen: Outdoors of the neighborhood.
Khan: Oh, sure, for certain. Oh, sure, 100%. We’re staunchly nonpartisan. We’re cautious of the individuals who reject us and people making an attempt to profit from us. We welcome partnerships however should be loyal to ourselves and our trigger, ex-Muslims. We’re not considering handing it over to any political get together or partisan challenge. So, sure, we’re very cautious of people that need to benefit from our points or our rejection of Islam. I’m very cognizant of that and check out exhausting to maintain it as bay as doable. It’s getting tougher and tougher as a result of the world is getting extra politicized. Points have gotten extra politicized. So we regularly really feel, ought to we are saying one thing about this subject or occasion? And we regularly don’t as a result of we will’t please everybody. It’s changing into increasingly tough to elucidate ourselves in a means that can successfully convey its nuance and context. It’s tough, and it’s getting tougher on daily basis, to remain nonpartisan, to concentrate on ex-Muslims particularly, and never let our work bleed into different areas. We attempt to preserve a good concentrate on ex-Muslim and spiritual freedom points.
Jacobsen: That’s good. Usually, I discover that in social actions, subject material creep is a continuing threat, particularly as organizations mature after ten years or so. Individuals by no means ask this, probably as a consequence of not making the excellence. Though it’s simple, and everybody is aware of it, it has but to be carried out. Do you discover any distinction between people who’re ex-Muslims coming from Sunni backgrounds versus Shia backgrounds versus Quranist backgrounds?
Khan: In what means?
Jacobsen: By way of, as an illustration, if somebody is coming from Iran versus Saudi Arabia, they’re each coming from fundamentalist contexts the place the federal government has tight management, however they’re coming from a Sunni versus Shia context. Does that color their ex-Muslim expertise, both within the technique of leaving or dwelling as somebody with out Islam?
Khan: Anecdotally, no. Admittedly, there are various Shia ex-Muslims inside our neighborhood, however we’re all unfold throughout North America. So that you’re going to narrate to whoever is closest to you. I don’t suppose so. But when there are, are you able to? Is there one thing particular you’re seeking to reply? Is it a subject or a viewpoint?
Jacobsen: Sure, I’m curious if theological variations trigger or correlate with an inflection on the expertise of changing into an ex-Muslim.
Khan: Oh, I don’t suppose so. Whether or not you’re Sunni or Shia, or the various variants of Shiism, dying is the commonly agreed upon the punishment for apostasy and blasphemy towards the Prophet. You’ve time to repent for those who blaspheme towards God, however none for those who blaspheme towards the Prophet. So I don’t suppose so as a result of the punishment is similar and equally extreme. However once more, I come from a Sunni background, in order that’s many of the examples I’ve in entrance of me. I don’t suppose so, however it might be attention-grabbing to ask folks how that will have coloured the method of their apostasy.
Jacobsen: That is smart, as most individuals leaving Islam shall be Sunni by an unlimited margin, given the demographics. Let’s shut up. How can folks become involved by donating time, funds, or experience or taking a look at you as a useful resource?
Khan: Sure, please go to our web site, exmuslims.org. We’re going by means of an internet site redevelopment. So, within the subsequent few months, you’ll see a model new web site with a way more simply navigable persecution tracker, the place we catalogue, monitor, and doc situations of ex-Muslim persecution worldwide. We now have over 500 entries with detailed accounts of what occurred to the particular person. You’ll be capable of type by means of incidents, seeing if somebody was exiled, murdered, imprisoned, fined, and many others., and by nation.
We now have launched a superb e-newsletter, and you’ll join it on our web site. You may also discover that on our web site if you wish to turn out to be a donor. Volunteers are all the time welcome to assist us suppose larger as we transfer into the subsequent section of our work, leaning extra into advocacy and analysis. We produced a improbable Apostate Report a couple of years in the past, masking the experiences of individuals dwelling in North America who left Islam, together with demographic info. It’s absolutely downloadable on our web site. Observe us on social media—we’re on Instagram, Twitter, and Fb. We put up polls, hyperlinks to articles, and updates on what we’re doing and what we hope to realize. When you’ve got any concepts on what you’d wish to find out about from ex-Muslims, please tell us. We’re all the time searching for concepts on how we will share details about our trigger and the results of leaving Islam.
I additionally need to add that the most important query we all the time get from both questioning Muslims or individuals who need to help the ex-Muslim trigger, however are afraid to as a result of they suppose they’ll be perceived as racist is: will we hate Muslims? No, we don’t. A few of our closest members of the family and associates are nonetheless working towards Muslims. Many people are nonetheless within the closet, dwelling amongst Muslims. We’re married to Muslims. We now have Muslim youngsters. Our challenge is with Islam, and it must be critiqued. It must be dissected in the identical means another faith is critiqued. Any faith that, you, as a Muslim have rejected since you believed it to be false, for no matter purpose you discovered proof for, flip that very same eye inward and take a look at Islam. Take into consideration whether or not you’re a good particular person due to, or, regardless of Islam. Basically, that’s our message.
Jacobsen: Aysha, thanks very a lot in your time at this time.
Khan: Thanks a lot. I recognize it.
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