Dr. Darrel Ray is the founder and President of the Board of Administrators of Recovering from Faith. He has been a psychologist for over thirty years and is the creator of 4 books: two on organizational teamwork in addition to “The God Virus-How Faith Infects Our Lives and Tradition” and “Intercourse and God-How Faith Distorts Sexuality”. Dr. Ray has been a scholar of faith most of his life and holds a Masters Diploma in faith in addition to a Bachelor’s Diploma in Sociology/Anthropology with a Doctorate in Psychology.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We’re right here. So, we nonetheless want to recollect what we talked about earlier than. That was years in the past. It was for Conatus Information, which is now approaching our media. So, we’ve obtained your private story for anybody following the interviews I’ve been doing. Right this moment, we’ll concentrate on the Secular Remedy Challenge and Recovering From Faith. We’ll begin with the extra well-known one, in all probability Recovering From Faith. So, what’s the present breadth of its companies now? There can be many tales, however what does it cowl now?
Dr Darrel Ray: We celebrated our fifteenth anniversary this previous April. April twentieth is our begin date, 2009. We have now about 470 volunteers who now cowl nearly each time zone on the planet by our chat line, name line, and assist teams. We have now volunteers from Moscow, Russia to Perth, Australia, and others in every single place, from South Africa to France, England, and Mexico, Lebanon, Romania, Canada and everywhere in the US. We simply completed incorporating a subsidiary or sister group in Australia. So, we now have a totally acknowledged nonprofit in Australia and New Zealand known as Recovering From Faith Australia.
That has been a delight. It’s taken us a few years to make that occur, however we’ve obtained an impartial board down underneath, chargeable for a few of our companies, however not all of them. A lot of our companies, the decision line and the chat line, are centralized, in order that they use our centralized companies. However they’re offering localized companies in Australia. We’ve all the time had the the assist teams. That’s how we began. We added the Helpline (name and chat) in 2014. Since then we have now added many different companies, like our useful resource library, our on-line neighborhood and our Monday evening RfRx program.
We have now face-to-face assist teams which may meet behind a espresso store. However COVID pressured us to cease these for apparent causes. So, we transitioned to having on-line assist group conferences. It’s ironic as a result of, in contrast to most organizations, we benefited from COVID-19. We grew dramatically throughout COVID as a result of folks have been at dwelling with nothing to do and needed to reside with their spiritual mother and father or one thing like that. We expanded and now have about 45 assist teams of all totally different flavours in virtually each time zone.
Someone can be a part of our assist group for LGBTQ points, a women-only or ex-Jehovah’s Witness assist group, and plenty of others. They’ll be a part of from any time zone, relying on the time of their space, as a result of they’re on Zoom. We’re serving hundreds by these on-line assist teams, and we nonetheless have about 30 face-to-face teams. We’ve obtained Zoom teams virtually daily, someplace on the planet. These are necessary companies for folks going by the trauma of being rejected by their household or being divorced by their partner as a result of they don’t consider anymore, or the child kicked out of his dwelling this week in Salt Lake Metropolis as a result of they’re homosexual. Their Mormon mother and father can’t take care of that situation.
We additionally get cellphone calls from locations like Saudi Arabia and Muslims in Toronto, Canada. The tales may be horrendous. Even within the Western world, particularly Muslims, may be very insular and impose their faith on their youngsters in some fairly loopy methods. That’s the scope of the restoration we take care of.
We even have an unlimited curated library that we’ve developed over the past 6 or 7 years, and it’s an lively residing library. So, if folks want a useful resource for residing with a non secular partner, we’ve obtained that. In the event that they want a useful resource on discover asylum out of Pakistan, we all know the place to ship them. We don’t present that sort of service however join folks to the appropriate locations. Apart from that, we’re a skilled listening ear.
Our volunteers reply the cellphone and chat, and they’re there to be caring and provide assist and sources so folks can get on with their lives after faith, any faith. We get calls from Hindus, Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientologists, Mormons—you identify it. We’ve had them name us. We don’t get many chats or calls, if any, from China as a result of they’re so locked down and have outlawed VPNs. However about each different nation on the planet can contact us, and we will assist folks in the event that they communicate English or Spanish. We do have a Romanian speaker. We’ve obtained Latvian, French and even Arabic audio system. We have now a number of Spanish audio system, however we’re not but geared to assist something greater than Spanish and English. Hopefully, we’ll have extra volunteers talking different languages..
We all the time want volunteers, it doesn’t matter what your language expertise are. We’ll prepare you then you’ll be able to deliver your language expertise to the desk.
Jacobsen: Given all of the sources coming to you from all these totally different international locations and faiths, have you ever related any peer-reviewed literature or skilled researchers with the work you’re doing in analyzing the construction of the calls and so forth? Have you ever gotten any basic thought of the overall symptomatology of people that have had a problematic spiritual upbringing after which come to you?
Ray: Sure, we have now. We’ve been doing this for 15 years and see the patterns. Our sample is primary: concern of hell. That’s often the primary factor folks come to us for. Whether or not they’re Muslim, Christian, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, they’re all afraid of some afterlife consequence. Seventh-Day Adventists, for instance, don’t consider in hell, however they nonetheless consider in some retribution from their God. However that’s primary. Quantity two is shunning and relationship points, being socially remoted by everyone they cherished or thought was on their facet.
After they depart the faith, they lose their entire social construction, and which will embrace their household and their partner. It could even embrace grownup youngsters. There are all types of issues that occur whenever you depart a faith. Quantity three, and these are virtually common, is sexuality.
We get many individuals saying, “I’m homosexual. I got here out to my household, they usually’re kicking me out of the home,” or an individual says, “I obtained married as a result of my church instructed me to, and now I understand ten years later with three children that I’m LGBTQ, or I’m trans or one thing.” So these are the highest three. In some instances, it’s all three in a single individual. There are different smaller points, however I might say we might wrap up 90% of all of the cellphone calls in concern of hell, concern of social isolation, shunning, and sexuality. That may wrap up 90% of them.
Each main faith emphasizes that it’s a must to be sexually pure. Religions like Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, and Christianity, all have a purity tradition mentality. So, intercourse alone goes to be one situation that nearly anyone in any faith goes to have, even when it’s a small half. It’s nonetheless part of what’s happening.
After which, in fact, social isolation is the way in which they hold you inside the faith. As a result of in case you dare to go away, “What occurred to the final one who left? They misplaced every part. They misplaced their partner. They misplaced their children.” Everybody can see what occurs, that instills concern, even terror, which retains folks tightly concerned within the faith.
They punish folks severely at the same time as they’re saying, “We’re doing it as a result of we love you.” There’s no hate fairly like Christian love, in relation to shunning your individual youngsters, There’s no violence fairly like Muslim peace in relation to killing your youngsters typically. We get folks calling us who’re underneath bodily menace, cellphone calls or chats from Pakistan, Saudi Arabid, Bangladesh, India – These are harmful locations for LGBTQ folks and for ladies who need to suppose for themselves.
We get ladies calling us saying that they’re being pressured to marry a person they don’t need to marry, they usually’d like to flee the nation to get away from the pressured marriage they’re being subjected to. Anyway, there’s loads of these sorts of issues. I hope that solutions your query.
Jacobsen: It does assist. Then what concerning the Secular Remedy Challenge? I bear in mind doing a number of interviews with Dr. Caleb Lack. Is he nonetheless there?
Ray: No, he has since left, however he’s nonetheless a giant supporter of us. Our new director— Dr, Travis McKie-Voerste has been our director for over 4 years, so I assume that claims one thing about how lengthy it has been since we final talked. You’re welcome to speak to him. Dr. Travis is doing a fantastic job. When Caleb instructed us he would step down, he agreed to proceed in an advisory function. We nonetheless used Caleb as a marketing consultant.
Dr. Lack has been very priceless in serving to us determine what we should do to keep up an expert service throughout the evolving world of psychotherapy. However Dr. Travis McKie-Voerst did his doctoral dissertation on. I’ll learn the title to you; you would possibly even need to come up with it.
It’s known as “Atheist Expertise of Counseling within the Bible Belt of the US.” So he went out and researched the problems that an atheist has in looking for remedy primarily within the Bible South, the place there are such a lot of Christian counsellors. Many licensed counselors can’t hold their faith out of their remedy observe.
Jacobsen: Sure, precisely. A Venn Diagram is a circle.
Ray: So he wrote that as his doctoral dissertation just a few years again, and that’s why we employed him. He’s not paid—no person will get paid right here—however that’s why we put him in command of STP; he had that background. We just lately had one other volunteer end a grasp’s thesis. I like that individuals are beginning to get on the analysis monitor and seeking to us to assist them do analysis. That’s one of many different interviews I’ve obtained this week—a grasp’s degree scholar who needs to speak to us about researching spiritual trauma.
Ray: A part of the rationale for this interview is so we will construct a catalog of details about RfR’s companies for individuals who may have us.
Jacobsen: Sure, that’s glorious. We’re all the time glad to speak as a result of we wish folks to know we’re right here to assist.
Ray: One other volunteer wrote a thesis titled ““As soon as I Felt I had a Alternative, I Didn’t Select Faith”: A Qualitative Evaluation of Which means in Spiritual Dones.” It examines how youngsters are raised with no selection in spiritual issues. Anyway, that’s some latest analysis I’m conscious of. I do know two or three different doctoral dissertations are in progress. I learn about them, however I haven’t seen the outcomes but. So the truth that we’ve in all probability obtained 5 to 10 lively analysis initiatives happening proper now’s fairly cool as a result of this didn’t exist even 5 – 6 years in the past. No one was speaking about spiritual trauma or how trauma can screw up your intercourse life, or how social isolation impacts folks.
Some of the horrible remedies you are able to do to a human being is to place them in solitary confinement. Virtually some other punishment or bodily therapy is extra bearable and recoverable than solitary confinement. Faith figured this out hundreds of years in the past. What they do is, in case you depart the faith, they isolate you from everyone you ever knew or cherished. It’s laborious to elucidate in phrases how traumatizing that’s—to suppose these folks have been a very powerful factor in your life. They birthed you. They cared for you. They instructed you they cherished you, and now they’re gone and can by no means discuss to you once more. Or in the event that they do, it isn’t very nice.
We take care of that so much. Individuals name us, saying, “How do I rebuild my life as a result of I misplaced every part?” Even when they didn’t lose all their monetary means and nonetheless have a job, it’s virtually worse than shedding their job, home, or monetary construction as a result of in case you nonetheless have your loved ones and assist community, you’ll be able to emotionally journey out that disaster. However in case you don’t have a assist community, all the cash on the planet in all probability isn’t going to assist that a lot.
Relating to the Secular Remedy Challenge, let me be extra particular about that. We have now handed 891 therapists registered in 9 totally different international locations. We’ve obtained seven or eight therapists in Australia, 29 or 30 in Canada, one or two in New Zealand, and therapists in Belgium, the UK, South Africa, and Argentina. We’ve internationalized and unfold out. I’m very glad to have Spanish-speaking therapists whom we vetted. It has grown monstrously. We handed 35,000 registered purchasers this week.
So 35,000 folks have come to us searching for assist. That doesn’t assure they booked an appointment, however likely did. These 891 therapists are getting referrals and purchasers by our companies and offering assist for something, not simply spiritual points. These therapists are skilled to make use of secular means and assist with any psychological well being situation. You’ll find somebody in our system at www.seculartherapy.org. Register, then search our database for therapist.
We celebrated our twelfth anniversary in Might. We began in 2012 and commenced with 26 therapists I knew would meet the factors we sought. Then we put a group collectively and began getting functions and conducting interviews, letting folks know. If you’re a therapist, go to our web site, https://www.seculartherapy.org/, and you will note in case you qualify. We’ve obtained a web page that describes what we’re searching for. For those who qualify, apply.
We flip down about 30% of all of the therapists that apply. We try this as a result of they don’t meet our standards. They didn’t learn the factors intently, or they didn’t give us the knowledge we would have liked to vet them. However I see that as a great factor. I hate turning folks down, in fact, however I additionally don’t need individuals who aren’t evidence-based, are nonetheless spiritual, or have supernatural concepts. As a result of one factor you can’t be if you wish to be a therapist with us, is somebody who believes in supernatural phenomena. For those who consider that crystals can heal you or you’ll be able to pray the homosexual away or any of that nonsense, you’re not eligible to hitch us.
Many therapists we’ve heard of do very unethical stuff, like telling folks, “Do you suppose your melancholy is since you’re an atheist?” They ignore the truth that the individual misplaced their entire household after they left the faith. Do you suppose shedding your entire household would possibly trigger some melancholy? No, they don’t suppose that. That’s how a lot they’re in that bubble of Christian privilege.
And that’s what we’re all for doing, Scott—difficult Christian privilege inside psychotherapy. It shouldn’t be there. The Counseling Affiliation, American Psychological Affiliation, and marriage and household associations all have moral ideas that say it’s possible you’ll not deliver your faith into your remedy. But that is violated each day worldwide in all types of how, and not one of the skilled societies will problem it. I could make ten complaints to the American Counseling Affiliation each day, and they might go straight into the wastebasket.
So it’s a giant downside when the factor that brought about you the illness now says, “Oh, we may help you.” A non secular counselor is a consultant of the very group that brought about your trauma. I get accused of being anti-religion and anti-therapy.
Jacobsen: You aren’t anti-religion.
Ray: No.
Jacobsen: You aren’t even anti-theist.
Ray: No. I’m concerning the psychological well being of individuals, and people folks occur to be previously spiritual or at present nonreligious. I see nothing unhealthy about that.
Jacobsen: Yep.
Ray: An attention-grabbing story—if you would like this or not—however we do have therapists come to us and say, “Sure, I’m nonetheless religious, or I’m nonetheless spiritual, however I can hold that out of my observe.” We don’t consider them. Right here’s why. It was in all probability about seven or eight years in the past that I had a Ph.D. psychologist apply, and he indicated that he had his Ph.D. from Notre Dame College in the US.
You don’t get a lot larger or higher than Notre Dame College. So, having a Ph.D. in psychology is fairly prestigious. So, I regarded it over and stated, “Can you retain your faith out of your observe?” And he stated, “Sure, I can try this. I wouldn’t apply if I couldn’t.” So I requested him, “I’ve obtained one query for you. You’ve obtained a 22-year-old school scholar who involves you. She’s been seeing you for a few weeks now. On the third week, she is available in and tells you, ‘I’m pregnant, and I’m going to get an abortion tomorrow on the abortion clinic. However I’d such as you to assist me keep calm as I am going by all of the harassing pro-lifers which can be going to attempt to cease me from stepping into.’ My query to you is, how would you assist her?” I despatched him an e mail. We have been doing it by e mail.
Every week goes by. Two weeks go by. I lastly despatched him one other e mail, “How would you assist her? Right here’s the story. How would you assist her?” One other week goes by, and he lastly will get again to me and says, “I couldn’t assist her.” Proper there, it tells me I don’t care how a lot you suppose you’ll be able to hold your faith out. Even with a Ph.D. from Notre Dame College, you might be nonetheless contaminated with Catholic ideology. I don’t need anyone utilizing any spiritual standards to assist or counsel folks.
Jacobsen: There was a comic story that I’m remembering. I’m looking it up. It was from 2020 with the South African Secular Society. A gentleman had utilized to be a wedding officer by SASS, South African Secular Society. Right here it’s:
We level folks on the SASS mission assertion and ethos, which incorporates the naturalist worldview.
We are saying very early on, “Do you assist the SASS mission and ethos?” The one selection is, “Sure.” We are saying, “Are you ready to do marriage ceremonies freed from supernatural content material?” The one reply is, “Sure.”
We are saying, “Are you ready to do same-sex and heterosexual intercourse marriages?” The one reply is, “Sure.” There’s, “Are you ready to do counselling?” It’s an non-obligatory one. Anyway, folks will blithely skim by these, “Sure, sure, sure, keep it up, no issues.”
Then we ask for motivation, “Why do you need to turn out to be a secular marriage officer?” At that time, we will fairly simply get issues like, “Oh, I’m a pastor at so-and-so congregation. I wished to marry my congregants.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Raubenheimer: We additionally get, “I’m a outstanding member of x, y, z church.” We don’t see it’s within the motivation, however we additionally ask them for pattern ceremonies.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Raubenheimer: For instance, the truth is, we had one very just lately. I hadn’t gone by the ceremony once we copied it in. We put this one on Google Docs, so the entire group might see it. However I began studying it.
And oops! This chap is mentioning God!
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Raubenheimer: He has 4 citations of God! He has obtained a number of references to a number of biblical verses.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Raubenheimer: Now, the truth is, Wynand can let you know extra about how this one obtained by the cracks. He arrange varied protections. However as a consequence of technical web site points, he turned it off. So, the individual had obtained by proper to that time.
I emailed him to say, “I seen that you just’ve ticked all of the bins saying you’re a secular individual and every part else. You’ve agreed to the phrases and circumstances and every part else. However I see that you just’re citing God and making biblical references in your marriage ceremonies. Are you able to make clear for us?”
He writes again and says, “Cancel my utility, I’m a Christian and I consider in GOD!”
[Wynand’s Meijer’s wife laughing in the background – not part of the conversation, but listening into it, obviously.]
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Jacobsen: I bear in mind doing a gaggle interview with the South African folks, and one of many individuals who was part of it was Wynand’s Meijer. He’s a South African. Within the background, his spouse is laughing at that decision. So, the entire thing round that. However sure, you get this sort of confusion. However you’ve seen that too, the complicated data that comes up in Pew Analysis the place folks will say that they’re atheist, and 1% will say they consider in God.
Ray: Sure, which is not sensible in any respect, however sure. Sure, that’s true. We’ve needed to tighten our standards as a result of folks typically don’t inform the reality. Generally individuals are merely confused. For those who give them the good thing about the doubt however ask for clarification you discover out the actual story.
Jacobsen: Yep.
Ray: They want clarification about phrases and what they imply.
Jacobsen: Yep, I agree.
Ray: They’ve this notion that as a result of they went by an ethics course and have been taught hold their faith out of their observe, they’ll try this. However they’ve by no means confronted the challenges we see in folks. So, we’re not going to take an opportunity on someone. Let’s put it that approach.
Jacobsen: Persons are too susceptible. I critiqued the place I used to reside in Fort Langley. They’ve a sobriety middle that calls itself a ministry. Of their language, they’re seeking to make disciples for Christ. Persons are coming to them for sobriety or substance misuse detox. They go on a farm, they usually’re closed off. They work at a farm for a yr. In circumstances like that, what’s your skilled opinion of the ethics of taking folks on the most susceptible level of their life after which making an attempt to make them disciples within the guise of a ministry or sobriety middle or therapy middle?
Ray: I’ll say I addressed that in my guide, The God Virus. Whether or not you’ve learn that or not, I spend a lot time exhibiting how. Why do we have now religiously based mostly hospitals? Why will we permit chaplains in prisons? Why are there so many chaplains and ministers in hospitals? What faith does greatest is reap the benefits of folks after they’re at their most susceptible. That’s the instance you’ve given me. It’s taking folks after they’re most simply reprogrammed as a result of the mind is confused. The mind is underneath a detox course of, maybe, or has been underneath a drug affect.
There are numerous the explanation why the mind would possibly should be extra balanced. So, sure, you place them on a farm for a yr, plus they in all probability are utilizing one other spiritual idea, and I’m going to throw this out at you. Alcoholics Nameless is nothing however a faith. Eight of the twelve steps identify one thing associated to deities, larger powers, gods, no matter. That could be a faith.
Eight of the twelve steps and none of those twelve steps are psychologically sound. Alcoholics Nameless is a horrendous psychological mannequin as a result of it’s a helplessness mannequin and it’s a illness mannequin. Not one of the analysis helps what AA purports. Many church buildings take the AA mannequin approach too significantly. Individuals want to listen to this. Those that learn this for the primary time might not get it.
Jacobsen: Oh, essential level. Individuals must get this from a number of angles. That is extremely key to my studying of it, too.
Ray: So Alcoholics Nameless isn’t based mostly on sound psychological ideas. It’s based mostly on unhealthy psychological ideas. The notion that you’re helpless means you need to have some supernatural factor outdoors of your self. That’s problematic. Alcoholics Nameless tries to get round all that on a regular basis, however they’ll’t. They’re a faith as a result of eight of the rattling twelve steps confer with one thing supernatural or God or spiritual.
So, I’m lifeless set towards AA. I’m, quite the opposite, supportive of secular sobriety and hurt discount applications. There are good evidence-based secular applications for drug and alcohol restoration. They’re usually based mostly on cognitive behavioural remedy with a 50-year confirmed monitor report. We all know it really works or works the perfect. Nothing works completely, in fact.
So what faith and some other faith that’s stepping into restoration is doing is solely making the most of folks after they’re at their most susceptible. Sure, they may make missionaries out of them. They may make folks that may exit and propagate, nevertheless it’s a horrible factor as a result of they’re not addressing the underlying points that drove the individual to the dependancy within the first place. Jesus can’t remedy your dependancy. Jesus can’t remedy your melancholy. Jesus can’t remedy your social expertise. There are numerous causes folks bask in medicine of any form.
More often than not, they overindulge in medicine or alcohol due to another situation. They’re going by a divorce. Their partner died. They have been in a automobile wreck, they usually have been on medicine to take care of the ache. Most individuals who could possibly be outlined as folks with an dependancy are not addicts three to 5 years later. Most individuals are self-medicating for social or psychological causes. AA has this notion that alcoholism is a lifelong illness. There’s no proof for that. None in anyway. So in case you purchase into the Alcoholics Nameless concentrate on this being a illness that can final your entire lifetime and also you’re going to die of this illness, you’re fallacious. So, how are you going to assist a therapy based mostly on such a complete fallacy? Most individuals don’t die of alcohol. They could die driving a automobile whereas underneath the affect.
That’s not the identical factor. I’m saying what AA preaches: that you just’re helpless, you’re going to die of alcoholism is solely false typically. The twelve steps push some unhealthy narratives. There are higher and extra confirmed methods to assist folks coping with drug abuse. Does that reply your query?
Jacobsen: It does. What are essentially the most controversial areas ethically and in instances acquired? How do you hint that tremendous line? How do you overcome these challenges?
Ray: It begins with coaching our brokers. Ethically, we need to keep as impartial as attainable as a result of we’re not right here to transform or deconvert. That could be a problem, as a result of folks usually come to volunteer for us with unreasonable expectations about their function, they usually must study to be extra like a counsellor than an adviser. So the problem is to assist folks keep in that impartial zone and study good Socratic questioning methods, or in case you’re aware of road epistemology. We educate these ideas in order that volunteers keep of their lane. Keep in your lane because the peer assist and be nonjudgmental, not advising.
One other problem we face is that we’re not, for instance, a suicide hotline. It’s not our function; we’re not skilled to try this. However we do get folks calling in who’re in peril of ending their lives. That doesn’t occur usually, nevertheless it occurs a few times a month. Much more usually, folks point out that they was suicidal. In order that’s a problem for us. We need to serve them as a result of they might come to us round spiritual points. Or an existential situation—if there’s no god, then I’ve misplaced all my that means. We hear that so much. So we have now to assist the consumer with the spiritual facet. But when they’re expressing lively suicidal ideation, we are going to cease the decision proper then and there and say, “You could name this quantity,” and we are going to give them the quantity if we all know their native space. We don’t all the time know their native space.
We all know the suicide hotline in South Africa. We all know the suicide hotline in France. So we’ve obtained a database that we’ve collected through the years. We are going to ship them instantly to a suicide hotline. We are going to refuse to speak to them as a result of we’re not a suicide hotline. In fact, we will’t assure they’ll go and try this, however we can’t take that accountability because it’s not one thing we’re skilled in. It’s not part of our mission. Nevertheless, on the identical time, and this can be a grey space that we have now to stroll, folks name us and say, “I’ve known as the suicide hotline in my space, they usually’re all spiritual. They need to inform me to return to Jesus or God or pray with me, so I don’t need to discuss to them.” We perceive that downside as a result of so many individuals are volunteering for these suicide hotlines that need to assist deliver folks again to Jesus. So we’ll proceed speaking to them so long as they’re not in peril. We are able to not discuss to them if we predict they’re in present hazard. Does that match with what you’re searching for?
Jacobsen: Sure, it’s the sort of factor that folks may not essentially take into consideration and even suppose to ask as a result of each group, particularly when coping with emotionally delicate subject material or folks in a susceptible state, will inevitably must, on an more and more common foundation, make tough moral selections that can impression folks’s lives long-term, typically completely. And it’s not people who don’t care concerning the folks they’re coping with, like prosperity gospel preachers. It’s that you just care. You’re making an attempt to offer neutrality. It’s much like the issue of impartial journalism, the place it’s a must to make impartial moral selections. I don’t think about myself beholden to the thought of the target journalist. I consider in goal language. You’ll be able to describe one thing in goal language. Nevertheless, any expertise goes to be colored. The language framing goes to be colored.
Even when you should use completely goal and impartial language, the body and the knowledge, the constancy, will omit sure issues due to phrase depend limits on concision, et cetera. So that you’re left with, for my part, higher and worse journalists relative to a specific context who attempt to attain sure common requirements of ethics and conduct. However, whenever you’re saying these issues, I recall myself in comparable circumstances as a result of coping with these spiritual areas is all the time tough. It’s context.
Ray: We even have a coaching situation, and we work laborious at this to determine take care of individuals who come to us with clear, critical psychological well being points. For instance, we are going to get people who find themselves schizophrenic or bipolar or have another situation. We’re not skilled to try this. I’m skilled to try this—I’m a psychologist—however that’s not the aim of what our volunteers are skilled to do. So we have now to work with our volunteers to know the place that line is between serving to them, supporting them, and crossing that line into psychological well being assist and remedy. We can’t try this, and in order that’s one other moral guideline.
We work nicely at it. Over time, we’ve refined our programs and our pointers. However folks come to us as volunteers wanting to assist folks within the worst approach attainable. They should understand which you can’t assist everyone. 10% of the individuals who name us, we can’t assist. It takes some time for volunteers to know and settle for that.
We may help 90%, however we can’t assist these few. We don’t strive, as a result of you’ll be able to trigger extra injury. We refer them to the Secular Remedy Challenge or another psychological well being useful resource.
That’s partly why we created the Secular Remedy Challenge—so we’d have a protected place to refer folks with these points. I also needs to say that we’re all volunteer-based, and we survive on donations. We don’t ask anyone who calls us to offer us a dime. No cash. We’re not Joel Osteen. We’re not serving to you for a blessing or something. So, if someone needs to assist us, they’ll donate to assist us as we assist others.
Jacobsen: How can folks get entangled?
Ray: Each greenback helps. We have now big charges to keep up our Meetup accounts all through the world. We have now to pay for our many Zoom accounts. We have now to pay for our worldwide cellphone strains. We have now software program improvement. We have now a complete group that does software program. We’re consistently doing outreach like tabling at conferences or Satisfaction occasions, county gala’s, and many others. However folks can get entangled with us in some ways, not simply by donating however by volunteering. They don’t must have any certification or coaching. We’ll take anyone as a result of we are going to prepare you. When you have sure expertise, like net improvement or graphic design, we’d like that sort of assist as nicely. However we’ll prepare you if you wish to assist folks on our helpline or run a gaggle for us.
You don’t want a university diploma or a background in psychology. You don’t want any of that. We’ll prepare anyone. It takes about 10 to twenty hours to coach a volunteer correctly. We solely let folks contact our purchasers in the event that they’re correctly skilled. Some folks don’t make it by the coaching, however most individuals do in the event that they’re dedicated to serving to folks. We have now a really in depth coaching program that enables us to do good work and know what our limits are on the identical time.
Jacobsen: Are you seeking to discover a third group for any explicit space the place you suppose it is advisable embrace a specific a part of emphasis?
Ray: No. I’m telling you, Scott. I spend far more time than I ever thought I might on serving to run Recovering From Faith. Happily, we have now an incredible government director, Gayle Jordan. She is superior. She is the operations individual. She runs it from an operations standpoint. My function is to be president of the board and assist set the tempo and imaginative and prescient for the group.
However I couldn’t deal with 450-470 volunteers and all of the programming and software program improvement. Gayle does a great job with that. So, no, I don’t have time. I’m not writing some other books. My books, The God Virus and Intercourse and God, take care of the very points that we’re coping with daily at Recovering From Faith. They’re virtually, I gained’t name them textbooks, however these two books are virtually textbooks for what we do and why we do it.
They clarify the theoretical and psychological ideas behind what we do, although I based the group after I wrote the books. I wrote the books, after which after having dozens, if not much more, folks known as me and emailed me saying they wanted assist after studying my books. They learn my books and stated, “I want your assist.” I couldn’t assist all these folks. In order that’s what led me to start out Recovering From Faith.
The fifth chapter of The God Virus was about intercourse, an enormous situation. That one chapter obtained extra responses, extra emails, and extra cellphone calls than virtually anything I printed. So I spotted, oh, there’s a complete different guide there. Two years later, I printed Intercourse and God. However I don’t want to start out anything. I obtained my fingers full. I’m retired. I’m 73 years previous. I need to be certain that this group is strong.
It has a great construction, to allow them to hold going once I kick the bucket. They gained’t want me. Nothing is worse than having a company whose founder doesn’t know their limits. I used to be an organizational psychologist for 30 years. I’ve seen how usually the founder turns into indispensable to the group. You’ve obtained to confess your limits on this planet, and I need to try this. I need to depart a great, robust group. I journey so much for RFR. We did a complete tour of Australia final yr.
I’ve attended a number of conventions and spoken at many others. We’re elevating consciousness, creating allies, and creating a donor base. This requires a lot work.
Jacobsen: Who’ve been folks that you just’ve regarded as much as in your profession?
Ray: In all probability early on in my profession, my mentor was Albert Ellis, the developer and founding father of Cognitive Behavioral Remedy. He was my mentor. I had a powerful and deep understanding and ability in cognitive behavioural remedy within the Seventies. That’s once I was finding out with him. That was one of many main influences on my life. I’m glad I had that chance to check with him and be influenced straight. Face-to-face with someone, you study shortly. With him, he was a really highly effective individual. That’s an understatement of how his persona expressed itself.
I’ve been influenced at a distance by many different folks in my life. I had a great household scenario. I grew up in a great household. My dad was a great affect on me. My household was supportive. I used to be the primary individual in my household to go to varsity—the primary individual to get a doctorate. So, I had a lot assist in that space. I’ve been influenced by folks like Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, who just lately died. I might identify a half dozen others who influenced my writing or what I selected to put in writing about.
My greatest good friend, Dr. Dan Dana, has been a mentor. He’s internationally identified for his work on mediation within the office and is a psychologist, too. These are folks you in all probability wouldn’t pay attention to.
Jacobsen: Who impresses you in secular therapeutic settings?
Ray: I can let you know who doesn’t impress me, and that’s the brand new age woo-woo bullshit theories that pop up each month. There’s a brand new psychological idea each month. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, who wrote The Physique Retains the Rating, has some rattling great things happening there. There’s extra proof wanted for his polyvagal idea, nevertheless it’ll in all probability, in 10 or 20 years, be seen as priceless. My colleague and good friend, Dr. Hector Garcia, has written fairly a bit on attention-grabbing subjects. One in every of my favourites of his is Alpha God. He reveals some attention-grabbing stuff. His day job earlier than he wrote these books was serving to develop some cutting-edge practices for troopers with PTSD on the Veterans Administration. So, Dr. Hector Garcia was instrumental in serving to develop one thing no person had ever finished earlier than. He wasn’t solely concerned in it, in fact, however studying so much about trauma is now paying off. Trauma with troopers as a result of trauma is in every single place.
Trauma comes from little one abuse, struggle, spousal abuse, and automobile wrecks. There are loads of trauma or alternatives for trauma. So, I’ve been very influenced by him, and I admire his work there. Dr. Marlene Winell has been an enormous affect on the secular motion as a result of she coined the time period spiritual trauma syndrome. She was seeing in her scientific observe individual after individual coming in with what seemed to be trauma, however they hadn’t been in a automobile wreck. They have been by no means a soldier. What’s happening right here? And in case you scratch under the floor, you discover out faith was the foundation reason for the trauma. So I credit score her and thank her. She got here to me at a convention in 2010.
I used to be there to talk on my then just lately printed guide, The God Virus, and he or she was there to talk on her guide, Leaving the Fold. We related over a beer or one thing. She stated, “Hey, I obtained this concept. Let me move it by you.” She opened her mouth. Inside just a few sentences, she used the time period “spiritual trauma,” and my mind went nuts.
I believed, “Whoa, that explains a lot.” It was a type of moments in your profession—it not often occurs, in fact—whenever you understand that explains a lot behaviour and what I’d seen in my scientific observe, however I’d not delved under the floor. Therapists are skilled to tread very fastidiously round faith.
So, I didn’t sit there within the workplace with a affected person pondering, “This trauma, the place is that this trauma coming from?” I used to be seeing trauma, nevertheless it by no means occurred to me to ask, “What was your spiritual background?” and discover that. Figuring out about spiritual trauma as we speak, a consumer would possibly say they’re Baptist. Then I’d ask, “Inform me about your upbringing within the Baptist religion.” They may say, “I needed to study my Bible classes.” I’d ask, “What occurred round your Bible classes?” They may reply, “I obtained overwhelmed a number of instances as a result of I didn’t memorize them correctly.”
Let’s discover that extra. “What about your mother and father? What was their spiritual perception?” They may say, “They have been tremendous fundamentalist and believed in ‘spare the rod, spoil the kid’ from Proverbs.”
That sort of exploration by no means occurred to me till she stated these phrases. I believed, “Dang it. There’s a complete part of this human being in entrance of me that I ought to have explored.” In some methods, I really feel responsible about that. I might have helped many individuals 30 years in the past if I’d identified that then, however I didn’t. That’s a protracted reply to your quick query.
Jacobsen: Trauma is really easy and frequent for many individuals, particularly regarding spiritual dogmatism. Do you suppose that for many individuals, particularly as most individuals don’t get remedy, life is a continuing sequence of moments of grieving and mourning?
Ray: What we discovered—that is, once more, one other perception that’s solely come in recent times—is that an individual could also be inside a non secular framework, in a non secular household or neighborhood, and be capable of do tremendous, they might have skilled or might not have skilled trauma. I used to be raised in a fairly darn spiritual and pretty conservative neighborhood and household. I used to be not traumatized by that. I don’t need anyone to suppose I’m making that declare. Nevertheless, what we see in lots of people who find themselves leaving high-control spiritual environments is that the very act of leaving is what causes the trauma.
They could or might not have been traumatized by their faith, however after they step out of it and lose every part, they’re homeless now. They’ve misplaced their household. As we’ve spoken earlier than, that may trigger trauma, or extra generally, it could actually set off or exacerbate the trauma they skilled after they have been of their faith. So, it provides insult to harm. You’re coping with the trauma.
How many individuals have been sexually abused of their childhood by spiritual figures and needed to disguise it? Catholic clergymen molested hundreds and hundreds of individuals. They went to their mother and father and stated, “Hey, the priest is doing unhealthy issues to me,” and the mother and father denied it. The mother and father stated, “Oh no, the priest would by no means try this.” So, right here’s a toddler who has to spend the remainder of their life throughout the father or mother’s care, denying that the priest ever did this to them. What occurs after they step out of the faith, and their mother and father now disown them, which may occur to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Adventists, and Catholics? That provides one other layer of trauma to those folks.
Oh, by the way in which, we do see a lot sexual-related trauma coming to us. Typically, as I’ve already talked about, LGBTQ identities are being persecuted or suppressed in folks. So, sure, there’s a lot alternative for trauma to remain hidden. You see so much behaviour throughout the church. I used to be raised within the church and look again on the place I’m now.
Take a look at all this behaviour throughout the church that was in all probability rooted in trauma, nevertheless it wasn’t acknowledged. Even when someone went to a psychologist, that psychologist, as I used to be, may not have acknowledged it both.
Jacobsen: In doing many of those interviews with individuals who gained prominence within the 2000s or 2010s, they’re functioning off not less than three interrelated actions: Militant Atheism, Firebrand Atheism, and New Atheism. They see that as an important second with a few errors, nevertheless it was nice in bringing to mild the considerations and voices of atheists and people typically affected by the laws. A giant query that arises extra usually now, as two main folks have handed away and two extra are within the latter years of life, is: what now?
So, we’ve garnered prominence. When it comes to the tradition struggle, it was clear that the nonreligious gained. When anybody watched the documentaries by Dawkins or others participating with these extraordinarily outstanding spiritual apologists, theologians, and others, they didn’t have many robust arguments. Or in the event that they did, they have been bored with arguments that didn’t produce a lot.
Ray: Sure, we actually had a significant push from some nice authors and thinkers which helped lots of people transfer previous faith. I believe it helped create a essential mass that we nonetheless get pleasure from as we speak. On the identical time, these individuals who left or are leaving usually want assist. That was completely lacking from these books. So, from a therapeutic standpoint, what ought to folks do for his or her well being and well-being when asking the “what now?” query?
Jacobsen: So that they’ve gotten some equality. They’ve gotten some recognition. It’s okay to be nonreligious the place we is perhaps in your nation, although your bigger tradition may not essentially settle for you. What do they do now? How do they construct a life after they’ve left these faiths? Or discover others who’ve none?
Ray: I hear a number of questions there. Let me concentrate on the “what now?” piece as a result of there’s a motion piece and remedy piece. Which one ought to we begin with? We are able to do them each. As talked about, I used to be in scientific observe for ten years and in organizational psychology observe for 30 years. My actual love was finding out organizations and serving to them turn out to be psychologically wholesome locations to work.
I cherished that work. It was nice. Nevertheless, throughout these 30 years, I noticed how organizations and actions work. What I noticed within the 2000s with the publication of Daniel Dennett, Dawkins, Hitchens and Sam Harris, the so-called “4 Horsemen,” was the creation of an mental motion that then reworked into extra of an activist motion, as you’ve famous.
Nevertheless, each motion goes by cycles or phases. That’s what I see right here. We’ve gone by a motion of getting folks lively, folks turning into conscious, pushing again legally, pushing again socially. I’m not satisfied we gained the struggle. There are nonetheless loads of authorized battles and equality wars. Nevertheless, when it comes to the singular objective of being identified within the wider tradition as what they’re, that was largely gained.
So, that piece we’ve achieved. We’re in what I name a consolidation part proper now. It’ll final for just a few extra years. Once I was taking a look at this, as a result of I think about myself a rabid activist, I’m all the time doing stuff—not simply Recovering From Faith – however I’m taking a look at how organizations and actions operate. We’ve obtained a consolidation proper now. The sooner leaders are leaving, dying or are concerned in different issues. The brand new folks coming in might want to get their ft on the bottom and develop their very own method. It’s like respiratory out and in. The motion is taking a breath righ now but additionally, there are various different issues to take folks’s vitality and focus and that might not be unhealthy. I believe we are going to see new methods of performing and difficult faith within the coming years. Most necessary, I see many extra secular folks working for workplace, so we might even see extra “inside work” as folks discover their voice in class boards or Congress.
We’ve obtained hundreds of individuals leaving the church, and there’s nowhere to go, but they nonetheless need neighborhood. So, the actual situation proper now’s constructing communities which can be pleasant to secular folks and households. The place is their childcare for a gaggle that wishes to fulfill and have a secular program? I’ve been saying this for 20 years: if you would like a motion, it needs to be childcare-friendly. It needs to be family-friendly.
So, I’m seeing some very quiet however highly effective actions. It’s virtually like the present beneath the ocean. You’ll be able to’t see it, nevertheless it’s there. It began with two issues: Sunday Meeting and OASIS. These are two organizations that you’re aware of. I helped begin OASIS right here in Kansas Metropolis, and we celebrated our tenth anniversary in April. Sunday Meeting is a few yr or two older than that. My associate spoke on the Sunday Meeting in Detroit yesterday.
So, these are viable elements of the motion that might not be acknowledged. But, isn’t that as necessary as whether or not Dawkins writes one other guide? That’s the way in which I see it. These are human beings bringing youngsters and younger folks into a gathering as soon as every week or as soon as a month, they usually’re coping with secular points. We flew Anthony Pandojas from Tufts College right here, to talk at Kansas Metropolis OASIS yesterday. That won’t make the atheist headlines, nevertheless it helps a rising secular motion that doesn’t present up on Capital Hill or on the information.
Anthony is the paid humanist chaplain for Tufts College, which is fairly cool. However the place are the humanist chaplains? There aren’t only some of them; however they didn’t exist 5 or ten years in the past. So that you ask, “What’s subsequent?” That’s what’s subsequent: constructing out our social assist community. Creating extra humanist chaplains, beginning extra household pleasant teams.
this from a religionists viewpoint. If I am going from Kansas Metropolis to Nashville, Tennessee, I can discover a Baptist church that’s very very like the one I went to, and I’ll even know folks in that Baptist church. So, I’ve obtained a community or a possible community if I’m a Baptist. Why don’t we have now that within the secular world? My associate known as the Sunday Meeting folks and stated, “Hey, I’m gonna come up there. “
Would you like me to talk? And so they stated sure. How did they learn about her? Why did they belief her? So that they trusted me, knew what I do, and let her communicate. That’s the start of networking and making a social assist community. I see Recovering From Faith on the very middle of this entire factor. As a result of when that Baptist one who’s leaving their church calls us and says, “The place can I discover neighborhood?” We flip round and say, “Right here’s a Freethought Group in your metropolis. Right here’s an Oasis within the metropolis proper subsequent to you. Right here’s the place you might go to a Sunday meeting in case you’re in that place.”
We’re connecting. When these folks depart the church, we may help them discover neighborhood. However just a few issues must occur. There needs to be a Recovering From Faith within the first place to catch them. I have a look at us as catching folks after they fall out of the church, after which there needs to be a secular neighborhood on the market for us to ship them on to.
So we are going to ship folks to Atheist United in Los Angeles if that’s the place they’re at. We’ll ship them to the Texas Freethought Church in Dallas if that’s the place they’re from, Oasis in Toronto, or Oasis in Houston. We have now an enormous database of communities that we will feed folks into. In order that’s in all probability not the reply you have been searching for, however that’s the place I see the motion going—constructing communities. In fact, these communities are all for secular points, LGBTQ rights, civil rights, and difficult spiritual privilege.
These new secular communities additionally assist conventional organizations like American Atheists, the Freedom From Faith Basis, or the American Humanist Affiliation, massive nationwide organizations. However I favor to be extra all for native organizations. I’m extra all for that native group that’s altering the way in which secularism is checked out inside a area people and possibly serving to a college board member get elected or going and complaining to a metropolis council after they’re discriminated towards as a result of they’re a secular group assembly in a neighborhood middle – which has occurred greater than as soon as. We’ve been kicked out. Oasis folks have been kicked out. I’ve two examples of Oasis folks being kicked out of services as a result of the native politician didn’t need us
Jacobsen: Who was the supply of the complaints? Who’re the complainers?
Ray: We met on the Tony Aguirre Middle in Kansas Metropolis, and we’d met there for a yr. An election got here, they usually elected a brand new metropolis councilman from that district. The town councilman discovered that an “atheist” group; we’re truly a humanist group, not an atheist group, however these have been his phrases—was assembly locally middle there. It’s open on Sundays. Individuals are available in and work out. It’s obtained a fitness center, exercise services, and issues. It has a gathering room. We have been utilizing the assembly room. It’s a gymnasium factor. He discovered about it and determined to alter the coverage. They’re not going to lease to anybody on Sunday mornings. Isn’t that handy and attention-grabbing? Oh, and by the way in which, he was an evangelical Christian.
I don’t know the total story in Houston, however that they had the identical factor occur to them a number of years in the past. They obtained kicked out of a facility they have been assembly in. The struggle isn’t over. We nonetheless battle discrimination towards us as we speak, and we’re looking out for it. For instance, we volunteered with the Metropolis Union Mission for 2 years, feeding the homelessness. Earlier than the third yr began, they determined to discover a technique to do away with us.
Jacobsen: So, we’ve obtained two factors of contact earlier than we wrap up. First, I wished to speak about collaborations and the significance of these. Then, let’s name them classes. So, collaboration. I now discover the huge breadth of secular and freethought organizations worldwide, not simply in the US. It’s in every single place now. There’s been such a world push for this degree of equality, which has been nice. The following step is the combination of effort. How have you ever finished that? How would you advocate folks try this?
Ray: You’re knocking on a door I’ve been engaged on for fairly some time. Not lengthy after I began Recovering From Faith and the Secular Remedy Challenge, I got here up with the thought of the secular assist community. It’s based mostly on the concept that we’ve obtained nationwide and worldwide organizations like American Atheists, Freedom From Faith Basis, and the American Humanist Affiliation. These are high-level organizations doing high-level work and coping with the political stuff. However who cares for the one that walked out of the church this week and is searching for a brand new neighborhood, assist, and data?
Church buildings do a fairly good job of supporting folks. If someone’s home burns down, the church will present up and assist them. If someone dies, the church will present up with a meal or two. However no person was doing that 10 or 15 years in the past for secular folks, and there’s a necessity that crosses localities. So, as a company—Recovering From Faith—we have now been actively and deliberately reaching out to different organizations to create networks that may assist folks in the identical ways in which church buildings do however throughout vast ranges of geography—for instance, dying and dying. Church buildings do a great job of that, however we don’t. So why can’t we do one thing round that space? We’ve began working and cooperating with some people who find themselves specialists in dying and dying and who have been prepared to return in and cooperate with us.
So, we’re beginning, actually subsequent month, a grief and loss service the place we can be offering data and brochures that describe the problems secular folks want round funerals and memorial companies. We need to put that proper subsequent to all of the Christian materials in funeral houses. Each funeral dwelling must have a brochure that claims, “Right here’s what you do whenever you get an atheist that dies.” No one’s doing that. It’s not our core mission at Recovering From Faith, however we will cooperate with different folks to make that occur. We cooperate with LGBTQ teams.
We tabled at many pleasure occasions over June and interacted, did outreach, and cooperated. Even when they’re spiritual, we’ll nonetheless cooperate with them in making an attempt to assist folks as a result of there are such a lot of LGBTQ individuals who undergo as a result of they left faith or as a result of faith made them undergo whereas they have been nonetheless in it. I see us and different organizations which can be much like us or have missions centered on emotional and psychological assist main the way in which. There are loads of different organizations becoming a member of with us.
That could be a rising reference to many concepts popping out of it. Persons are beginning to mix two and two and work throughout geographical boundaries. For instance, Black Nonbelievers and the Central Florida Freethought Group have a yearly cruise. There are two or three different secular cruises now. They weren’t there ten years in the past. I see OASIS, which is a nationwide community of about ten teams. Are you aware of OASIS?
Jacobsen: I’m, sure.
Ray: I believed you in all probability have been. I helped begin that group right here in Kansas Metropolis, and we have now 70 to 100 folks. We had 73 folks present up yesterday to listen to the humanist chaplain of Tufts College communicate. That’s a community.
We now have a connection between OASIS and the secular hub at Tufts College. There are others, just like the secular hub in Denver, the place I communicate subsequent week. They’re related, too. So there’s a lot connection, and the collaboration will evolve from that connection, which can nonetheless should be there although not as robust as we’d wish to see it.
However I can see that in 10 years, the community will develop. I see networks like spiderwebs. You’ll not catch flies in case you solely have three or 4 threads, however when you’ve got 1,000 threads, you’ll catch many flies.
We’re nonetheless on the stage the place we’d like extra strings in our internet to catch so much. I believe it should take just a few extra years earlier than we begin catching much more. When these networks assist in political and social activism, we are going to see modifications we don’t at present see. However I see loads of it coming.
Regionally, individuals are doing it, and we are going to quickly begin studying from one another. That can enhance the synergy amongst these totally different teams. With out that collaboration, we don’t make progress. It’s multiple little place in Denver, one in Dallas, or one in Boston. It’s obtained to be a community of locations that then acquire political energy, not as a result of we’re the fastest-growing nonreligious group, however as a result of we’re the fastest-growing community of nonreligious individuals who have political energy and a imaginative and prescient for what we wish this nation to be and what sort of neighbor we need to be to our Canadian associates, by the way in which. I’ve obtained Canadian associates who’re fearful of what’s happening down right here.
Jacobsen: We’re, too, by the way in which. It’s not simply there. I’ve interviewed many individuals worldwide in several contexts, from totally different ages and demographics. It’s laborious to be shocked about a lot anymore. If you discuss to folks in different international locations, assassination makes an attempt and coup makes an attempt of their leaders and governments will not be new to them. That is America becoming a member of a number of the extra unsavoury elements of worldwide affairs relating to inner issues. This has occurred earlier than. The final official one was in 1981 with Reagan. I’m conscious Barack Obama in 2008 and Bush in 1998, or was it Clinton, had extra guards as a consequence of what occurred to Reagan. So there’s a protracted, unillustrious historical past going again to Roosevelt, Lincoln.
Ray: Three American presidents have been assassinated. And two others have been wounded: Reagan and Teddy Roosevelt. Roosevelt wasn’t at present president; he ran for president when he obtained wounded.
It was his second time working for president. So you might say 4 or possibly 5 American presidents have both died (three did die) or had assassination makes an attempt. Take a look at what occurred to Trump yesterday. That’s the identical factor that occurred to Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt was not president. He had been president after McKinley was assassinated.
No, that’s fallacious. It was Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley and Kennedy who have been all killed by assassins. Then Teddy Roosevelt, Reagan, and now Trump all had unsuccessful assassination makes an attempt, however they nonetheless took a bullet. In order that’s seven presidents out of what number of we’ve had? For those who have a look at it, your likelihood of being murdered, or not less than having an tried homicide, in case you’re working for president or are president, is fairly excessive. That goes with the territory.
How did we get off on that?
Jacobsen: Oh, your Canadian associates are frightened. I don’t share that fear. In a way, I don’t share the concern, though I understand the context. We are able to predict the identical. I wouldn’t really feel the concern. That’s the distinction. Doing this sort of work, you study so much. You develop. You alter. You adapt to new proof from the world. What would you think about issues that, in the mean time, have been failures however, in hindsight, have been classes?
Ray: I’ll return to once I was in school. I do a complete discuss on my civil rights work again then, protesting and such. I used to be additionally a church youth minister and created a bus ministry. These are each lengthy tales, however I used to be nonetheless a Christian—a really liberal Christian inside a fairly darn conservative impartial Christian church—two of those church buildings. Over my school years, I used to be a paid youth minister and had semi-paid jobs.
Each a type of jobs I did, I in the end obtained fired from. The primary was as a result of I introduced one other Sunday college class to fulfill with ours. We have been the identical denomination, Impartial Christian Church, in the identical metropolis. The one downside was that the opposite Sunday college class was in a Black church. This was 1969-1970. I introduced a Black Sunday college class to fulfill with the white Sunday college class I ran, and inside a month, I used to be fired.
That’s a lesson discovered about change inside a construction and an establishment. You’ll be able to’t change the church from inside. It doesn’t work. I had two different initiatives there; they have been very profitable, so long as I used to be concerned – I could make one thing succeed. The issue is once I’m not concerned. How do you be certain that what you’re doing has endurance? All three of my church initiatives in the end failed. I discovered so much from these failures.
In these three examples, being solely a university scholar taught me so much about establishments, my dedication, and the way different folks work. Once I obtained into graduate college, I had a mentor, Invoice Barnes, I ought to have talked about him earlier. Invoice Barnes was an unimaginable mentor and civil rights chief who marched alongside Dr. Martin Luther King. That’s the sort of individual he was. He was my mentor at Scarritt Faculty for Christian Employees. I went there as a result of it was essentially the most liberal school I might discover that also did social justice work.
I discovered so much there, principally being launched to Saul Alinsky’s guide Guidelines for Radicals. It’s a really influential guide in my philosophy about go about social justice and alter. That was the training piece of it. The church stuff was the failure piece of it. Over the following 30 years, I labored inside Fortune 500 firms doing loads of organizational psychology stuff. I can’t let you know all of the stuff I discovered, however I used that studying over 30 years, so once I determined to start out Recovering From Faith, I knew what the fuck I used to be going to do and do it. Hopefully it’s arrange in order that it lasts past my lifetime.
For those who have been ever to return inside Recovering From Faith—not that I’m asking or anticipating that—and knew something about organizational psychology, you’d see that we’ve labored laborious to create the buildings that make for very robust and resilient organizations. We have now a superb coaching program, excellent skilled leaders, and an government director who understands the mission and retains us on monitor and we’ve obtained a fantastic donor base.
We have now a sturdy fundraising program the permits us to serve our purchasers and develop with outreach. Our status for monetary accountability within the secular world, provides folks confidence that we’ll use their cash properly, in order that’s necessary.
We are able to meet our funds with out having to scrape by and fear about the place our subsequent dime is coming from. For the primary seven or eight years we struggled with funds. Loads got here out of my very own pocket however we have now discovered so much about fundraising. That was one space I wasn’t as expert at. In order that was a giant factor, and, in fact, I failed a number of instances there. I additionally discovered which you can’t solely depend on grants. Grants are laborious to return by and will solely final for one yr. So, we have now constructed our funds and course of round strong monetary philosophy and accountability. I might discuss all day about locations I failed and what I’ve discovered, however is that adequate for you, or would you like extra?
Jacobsen: That must be good. What are the stuff you have been just about proper about all alongside?
Ray: I used to be proper about the way you prepare and recruit folks. We have now a philosophy that I used to be proper about, and that’s what I name the Marine philosophy, just like the U.S. Marines’ “The few, the proud, the Marines.” If you would like good folks, you need to make them leap by hoops. Simply because somebody fills out a volunteer utility, doesn’t imply they are going to make a great volunteer. They must show it to us.
We make folks undergo an interview course of. I dare say, there are jobs with fewer hoops than what we put you thru. When you’ve made it by the applying course of, the interview course of, the self-training course of, the one-on-one coaching course of, and the supervised coaching course of, that’s 5 steps, and each a type of steps is necessary. For those who make it by all 5, you’ll in all probability make a great volunteer, however we get many individuals dropping out at every step. In order that’s our philosophy, and that’s a philosophy we’ve had because the very starting.
You’ll be able to volunteer for us in case you show you’re devoted and prepared to comply with our mannequin. I might put that within the “I’ve all the time identified” column. I all the time knew it might take a lot work to discover a good government director. We went by two government administrators early on in Recovering From Faith’s life, they usually weren’t a match. That was my fault.
I failed there for varied causes. One, I’ll take accountability for; the opposite, I gained’t. However discovering the appropriate individual is difficult. When you do, it’s a blessing. It’s wonderful what Gayle can do, how folks love her, and the way robust she may be. She doesn’t put up with bullshit. She retains us laser centered on our mission to offer “Hope, Therapeutic and Help for these coping with doubt and nonbelief.”
Jacobsen: I do not forget that quote the politician put up about her being essentially the most harmful girl in Tennessee. These are the personalities, from native Sunday Meeting leaders to massive leaders like myself, Dan Barker, or whoever else. These are the personalities making issues occur. Some folks make errors, too. I’ve additionally talked to individuals who have had public controversies in our communities, however they’re often not that main. The large factor is, do we have now a tradition of individuals having the ability to forgive, be forgiven, enhance, and present themselves worthy of that stature that they had earlier than? That could possibly be an open query that we have to ask ourselves. It’s a bunch of freethought communities.
Ray: Sure. I need to add one factor. I wished to say earlier, and I don’t suppose I did, a little bit piece of philosophy: activism comes from the neighborhood. It’s an necessary idea. Activism doesn’t come from particular person motion. It comes from the neighborhood. Each profitable activist had a neighborhood at their again.
Jacobsen: Consistently, there are folks whose names we’ve forgotten, however who have been the one purpose and methods by which individuals like Martin Luther King and Malcolm X have been in a position to rise and symbolize a motion and be “the motion.”
Ray: That’s proper. Precisely proper. One in every of my visions for the long run is to develop younger management, to develop leaders within the secular neighborhood. That was my profession for 30 years. Though I’ve but to reach that space, I might like to systematically develop leaders who might step up and develop extra communities.
Jacobsen: My essential query to you, although, can be, how will we make it in order that it’s not like some management applications may be, the place it’s an ego factor? It’s an ego sport. It’s egocentric self-interest reasonably than somebody taking this coaching to be of higher use to a neighborhood. How will we bolster towards that, if we will?
Ray: You’ve already hit the nail on the pinnacle. That’s why I’ve but to achieve success. As a result of I look on the market and see many egos that need to be leaders. I don’t name them leaders. That’s not a real chief. Sadly, we’re plagued with one factor. I’ll say it out loud as a result of I’ll get in hassle for it, however I’ll say this. There are a plethora of ex-ministers who at the moment are atheists, they usually all need to turn out to be atheist ministers. All of them need to create a church once more as an atheist, they usually don’t need to share management. They need to be the charismatic individual.
Jacobsen: I’ve been instructed about this. I haven’t been instructed particular names, however I’ve been instructed this can be a development that folks, leaders popping out of those church buildings or no matter spiritual custom, need the identical automated standing for no matter purpose.
Ray: Oh, they’re egos. I even wrote an article and printed it in American Atheist journal. They’re narcissists. Most massive, profitable ministers are in all probability narcissistic. After they depart, they don’t lose that. They need to create one other following. I’ve watched half a dozen of those folks come out splashily however unsuccessfully attempt to create their little cult or following. I’ve solely seen certainly one of them make the transition efficiently, and he’s one of many least egotistical folks I do know amongst that group. He’s nonetheless egotistical. I gained’t say that he’s not. So there are leaders on the market, and in case you say you need to develop management, they’ll leap on the bandwagon. They’re the final folks I need to educate, prepare, or work with. I need people who find themselves able to cooperating and collaborating with others.
Jacobsen: That’s an necessary situation. Thanks to your time.
Ray: I admire you doing this. For no matter purpose, you’re going to place it on the market. I do have this factor behind my thoughts. I’m 73. I’ll kick the bucket someplace within the subsequent 20 years. Who is aware of? I need to move alongside a few of what we’ve completed, how and why we did it, and the philosophy behind it. So, thanks for doing this. This helps categorize and doc the entire or a part of the method in some small approach. So, thanks for doing it. Let me know when or if any of it comes out. We’ll push it on our finish.
Jacobsen: Wonderful. Thanks, Darrel. I admire it, as all the time.
Ray: You’re welcome. Have a great evening.
Jacobsen: Bye.
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