In Hamas’s October 7 assault, greater than 200 hostages had been taken into Gaza. Within the months since, a bit of over 100 have been launched. For many who survive, once they arrive again in Israel, they need to endure intense public curiosity about their expertise. I’ve met a few of them as they arrive by way of Washington, D.C., to fulfill with political leaders.
Most just lately, I spoke with Liat Beinin Atzili in Washington, the place she traveled to speak with President Joe Biden, about grief and in regards to the struggle.
Take heed to the dialog right here:
The next is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin [narrating]: I’m Hanna Rosin. That is Radio Atlantic.
Over these previous couple of months, I’ve met fairly a couple of former Israeli hostages who come by way of D.C. They arrive to city to inform their tales, and often to remind those who there are extra of them nonetheless in captivity and we must always do every little thing potential to assist get them out.
They and their kin have change into a separate group, possibly even a motion.
These days, I’ve observed one thing totally different in regards to the group. They appear extra mobilized, much less like advocates and extra like activists. When Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu got here to city the opposite week, six hostage kin protesting had been arrested. They’re offended that he invokes their expertise to maintain the struggle going. They wore bright-yellow T-shirts that say seal the deal now.
It looks like they’ve discovered their voice in an actual method. Final month, simply earlier than Netanyahu’s go to, I heard that one former hostage was coming by way of city and wished to speak.
Rosin: Okay.
Liat Atzili: Am I sitting shut sufficient? So that is okay?
Employees: That’s nice. Sure.
Atzili: Okay.
Rosin[narrating]: She was assembly with President Joe Biden. This was an indication to me that she was far sufficient alongside in her therapeutic for a dialog as a result of it’s exhausting to remain composed for one thing like that if the expertise continues to be uncooked.
Rosin: Do you’ve gotten something in your head or any questions earlier than we simply go, like something that’s weighing on you immediately?
Atzili: No, no, no. I’m good immediately.
Rosin: You’re good immediately?
Atzili: Yeah.
Rosin: Okay. Okay, good. Are you able to inform me your identify?
Atzili: My identify is Liat Atzili. I was Beinin.
After which after I returned from captivity, I came upon that my husband had been killed on October 7, and his identify was Atzili, so I needed to get new ID. So I simply selected the spur of the second that I’m ditching Beinin and changing into Atzili.
Rosin: That’s fascinating. It’s humorous how this stuff which may not imply one thing in one other time—like a reputation or the order of a reputation, or it’s one thing you may need, like, a humorous argument about—is out of the blue so heavy.
Atzili: Yeah. Yeah, it’s bizarre.
Rosin[narrating]: Liat was certainly one of many Israelis to lose a cherished one on October 7—her husband, Aviv.
And she or he was certainly one of over 200 hostages taken again behind the fence round Gaza. She wasn’t held within the tunnels however in a Gazan residence. She was there for nearly two months, which was sufficient time to get to know her captors and have actual conversations with them.
[Pause]
Rosin: I wish to return to even earlier than the day. I’m curious what—I imply, Nir Oz, for People, it’s barely a mile and a half from Gaza.
Atzili: Yeah.
Rosin: I imply, simply so that everyone listening understands how shut it’s: Like, this fence maintaining Gazans in, the identical one the Hamas terrorists breached on October 7, may be very near the kibbutz.
Atzili: Yeah, it’s like a mile and a half from the border between Israel and the Gaza Strip.
Rosin: Which may be very, very, very shut. So I’m curious: What, earlier than October 7—since you’ve lived there for years and years—was your expertise of Gaza or Gazans?
Atzili: I had no expertise. I got here to dwell on the kibbutz after I was within the military, throughout my military service. After I used to be discharged from the military, Aviv and I spent a couple of years touring, and we got here again in, like, I believe, 2000, and that was simply when the Second Intifada began. So, intifada means “rebellion.”
Rosin: Palestinian rebellion.
Atzili: Palestinian. Yeah, it’s in Arabic. So on the time, there have been staff from Gaza engaged on Nir Oz. And the very first thing that I bear in mind is a dialogue of the entire kibbutz: if the kibbutz ought to proceed using these staff from Gaza, and it was determined that no, that it felt unsafe. In order that’s, like, the primary encounter that I had with Gazans and what it meant to dwell on the Gaza border.
[Music]
Atzili: I grew up on a kibbutz within the north of Israel in an space the place there are plenty of Arab Israeli or Israeli Palestinian villages. So it’s a distinct relationship as a result of these persons are Israeli residents. And there are points, however they’re Israeli residents, and the individuals who dwell within the Gaza Strip aren’t Israeli residents.
They had been below army rule. There have been many individuals on the kibbutz who had been peace activists and had been concerned in all types of initiatives to assist individuals from the Gaza Strip. Individuals from Gaza would come to Israeli hospitals to be handled for all types of issues that had been unimaginable to deal with there. So there was this entire group that was answerable for coordinating rides for individuals coming from Gaza into Israel. So there have been lots of people on Nir Ouncesinvolved in that.
Rosin: I simply marvel what you knew about Gaza earlier than you had been, you recognize—you didn’t select to go there. However I’m simply curious, did you’ve gotten a picture of Gaza or something like that?
Atzili: I did. I did. I kind of imagined it, like, you recognize, a really poor third-world nation. And I knew that the availability of water and electrical energy wasn’t 100%, that there have been lengthy durations of time that they didn’t have operating water or electrical energy. I used to be actually, actually interested in how you reside like that.
, I’m a trainer. I’m a historical past trainer. I’m a Holocaust educator. An enormous problem that we focus on with college students when educating in regards to the Holocaust is how one thing just like the Holocaust can occur and why individuals don’t do something about it. And to me, you recognize, there was a fence there, and I felt obligated to be serious about what occurs on the opposite aspect of the fence.
Rosin: Mm-hmm. I’ve all the time been interested in that however I believe too nervous to ask somebody who lived in Nir Ouncesor someplace down there, like, what did you—there’s a fence there. Like that’s simply an odd state of affairs to be in. , there’s the brand new Holocaust film The Zone of Curiosity. , that entire film is about individuals dwelling inside a fence, kind of attempting to disregard what’s on the opposite aspect of the fence.
And I imply, it’s such a horrible query I’m asking, however I’ve all the time been curious, like, what was the method of ignoring—? , what was individuals’s interactions with the fence earlier than they’d ever been there? Or pondering, Why is the fence there? or, What’s our relationship to that fence? or something like that. Is {that a} horrible query?
Atzili: It’s not a horrible query. I believe it’s a extremely vital query. I believe it’s the query. And I believe that, actually, you possibly can kind of very roughly divide individuals into individuals who cared what occurred on the opposite aspect of the fence and individuals who didn’t.
I believe now it’s change into very, very delicate and really troublesome, and individuals who I knew to be, you recognize, very left-wing, peace-driven are realigning their emotions and their ideas and their beliefs. However I believe that’s an important query, whether or not you possibly can relate to the truth that on the opposite aspect of the fence dwell human beings, and that there’s a cause for what’s been occurring up to now.
I imply, it’s not since October 7. It’s the previous. I imply, we are able to take it again, however let’s not go method too far again. I’ll simply say there’s a cause for what’s been occurring up to now 15 years, and October 7 didn’t occur in a vacuum, and there are causes for why it occurred.
A phrase that’s troublesome—it’s troublesome to make use of it, however there’s a context to what occurred. And you may’t overlook that—can’t overlook that these individuals have been dwelling in, I believe, horrible circumstances. Additionally, I believe Hamas rule has not—Hamas doesn’t care very a lot about how the strange Palestinian within the Gaza Strip lives, what sort of life they’ve. And I believe Israel has an enormous half in enabling Hamas to have such a robust maintain on the Palestinians within the Gaza Strip, that it’s unimaginable to disregard all this stuff. It’s unimaginable to disregard that persons are dwelling on this place with very, little or no hope to have a traditional life, or what I contemplate a traditional life.
And I truly spoke about this fairly a bit with my captors.
Rosin: Nicely, let’s go there. You’ve had an expertise that you just’ve by no means had earlier than of crossing the border, and I think about that will change an individual.
Atzili: Yeah.
Rosin: Now we have plenty of, like, vicious and ugly photos from October 7 of kidnapping, individuals being taken, killed. Your story is a bit of bit totally different from that and fairly uncommon. Are you able to speak about what you bear in mind?
Atzili: Nicely, Aviv had left the home very shortly after the assault started as a result of he was on the first-response crew. And the final I heard from him was at, like, 8:30 within the morning.
So I used to be on my own within the protected room in our home. My two sons had been on the kibbutz, however they don’t dwell at residence anymore. And my daughter wasn’t on the kibbutz, which I’m so, so grateful for. So I used to be alone.
And when individuals got here and entered my home and got here to kidnap me, to take me hostage—I don’t, I don’t even know what phrase to make use of—it was already fairly late within the day. It was round 11.
And I believe, by that time, they realized that the Israeli military wasn’t coming, that there was going to be no battle in Nir Oz, in order that they had been very relaxed, I believe. And in addition, I believe it was simply luck, the those who occurred to enter my home and to take me. As a result of the very very first thing they mentioned—I imply, they got here into the protected room. They had been armed. They had been carrying uniforms. However the very very first thing they mentioned was, You’re going to return with us now. However don’t fear; we’re not going to harm you. We’re going to guard you. And also you’re going to be protected with us.
I imply, I used to be in pajamas. They advised me, you recognize, Dress. I requested if I may go get one thing from a distinct room in the home, and so they mentioned, Fantastic. Go.
Rosin: Wow.
Atzili: Yeah, yeah. They usually requested me if there was one thing that I wanted that I couldn’t get. I had no concept how lengthy I used to be going for, so—
Rosin: That’s so complicated.
Atzili: Yeah, it’s actually complicated.
I used to be terrified. I imply, I didn’t have any coherent ideas. I stored pondering, you recognize, Get a gripping on your self. I imply, you’ve gotten some management on this state of affairs. I couldn’t—I imply, that is the worst factor that I may think about. It’s occurring now, however it’s not that horrible.
However now, like, I believe what I may have finished: I may have taken a toothbrush. I may have taken garments. I may have taken a ebook. I may have texted my youngsters and mentioned, you recognize, I’m being kidnapped, however don’t fear. I’m okay.
Rosin: What did you do? What did you’re taking?
Atzili: Nothing. Nothing.
Rosin: You imply you simply, like, put a pair of pants in a bag?
Atzili: I put a pair of pants on and, like, the man gave me a shirt and mentioned, Right here. Put on this. Put on this, gave me a blanket. Yeah.
Rosin: Did they are saying the place you had been going?
Atzili: They mentioned that they had been taking me to the Gaza Strip. And I used to be taken into Khan Younis by automotive.
Rosin: Did you’ve gotten any sense of the panorama of Gaza as you’re driving by way of? Like, you crossed the border—
Atzili: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Though I didn’t have glasses. I seemed for them. I couldn’t discover them. After which after I got here residence, they had been within the actual place that I knew that they need to have been. However for nearly two months I couldn’t see. Okay, I imply, there wasn’t that a lot to see.
[Music]
Atzili: I ended up spending, like, the primary 36 hours in—the man who took me from my home, in his home. He introduced me to his household’s residence. And his mom and his sister simply took actually, actually excellent care of me. I imply, they realized that I used to be in shock and that I used to be terribly upset.
Rosin: What do you imply they took excellent care of you?
Atzili: They washed my garments. They gave me a change of garments. They, you recognize, advised me, Go take a bathe. They fed me, mentioned, It’s worthwhile to eat. It’s worthwhile to relaxation. They understood that I used to be going by way of one thing horrible, that I used to be apprehensive about my kids. I didn’t know what had occurred to my kids or to Aviv.
Rosin: However that’s so sophisticated that in a hostage state of affairs, the place you’ve simply been kidnapped, you’ve gotten an instantaneous heavy dose of plausible, pure human empathy. Like, generally it’s manipulative—you hear every kind of tales, however this seems like a simple, plausible, feminine dose of empathy.
Atzili: Yeah, it’s actually complicated. However you recognize, I used to be capable of, like, manage my ideas and, like, wrap my head round that these are individuals. I imply, what I believed all alongside: that on the opposite aspect of the fence dwell individuals identical to me, and that I can talk, and that I’d be okay if I managed to make a connection.
And I’m actually glad that my theories lived as much as actuality. And that was very, very reassuring to spend the primary hours like that with ladies, with kids. There have been two youngsters. And the subsequent day I used to be transferred to a distinct home, and I met a lady from Nir Oz, and we ended up spending the entire time collectively. And there have been two guys who had been guarding us.
Rosin: Mm-hmm.
Atzili: Unarmed. Considered one of them was a lawyer; one was a trainer, educated. They spoke English. They had been energetic in Hamas. They had been very, very spiritual, however in addition they—they made an enormous, enormous, enormous effort to make us really feel protected and to speak with us. Clearly, it’s not a simple factor to undergo.
We had no concept what was occurring in Israel. I didn’t know if my sons had been alive. I didn’t know if Aviv was alive. I knew that they didn’t know what was occurring with me.
Apart from the state of affairs being horrible, every little thing was—I imply, it wasn’t as horrible because it could possibly be. And I do know that I used to be extremely fortunate.
Rosin: I used to be going to say, there’s some a part of you that feels—
Atzili: Responsible.
Rosin: Yeah, one thing, one thing conflicted indirectly about this.
Atzili: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[Music]
Atzili: Nicely, the primary few days I used to be very, very scared. However then I received the sensation that these individuals had been genuinely serious about actually defending us, that they weren’t going to harm us, that they believed that what Hamas wished to realize was a deal, a hostage—that they’d taken hostages to have political prisoners launched.
Rosin: Mm-hmm. And do you know, at that time, that Israelis had been killed?
Atzili: Yeah, yeah. I knew the numbers. I didn’t understand how many individuals from Nir Ounceshad been killed. I didn’t know, however I knew the numbers. I knew what number of hostages there have been.
Rosin: And understanding that, how did you get by way of the hours of the day? What was your typical day-to-day like with them?
Atzili: So in the course of the day, I imply, there was plenty of noise and folks coming and going. However within the evenings, when issues began to calm down—so it was actually vital to our captors that we be quiet, and so they had been afraid that individuals on the street would discover out that we had been being held there.
Rosin: As a result of they couldn’t management—they didn’t know the individuals on the road, and so they couldn’t management how they might react to seeing Israelis.
Atzili: Yeah, yeah.
Rosin: As a result of Israelis had been the reason for their distress at that second.
Atzili: Yeah, they had been afraid that we’d be attacked.
Rosin: Which can be unusual as a result of then they’re ready of being your—they’re protecting.
Atzili: Yeah, yeah. I imply, the factor that frightened me probably the most was that there can be a bombing or a missile assault, and that they might die, and I’d be left alone.
Rosin: Left alone with a crowd and with out them to guard you?
Atzili: Yeah, yeah.
Rosin: That’s bizarre as a result of that may be a type of bond.
Atzili: Yeah, yeah.
Rosin: Like, I truly actually need you.
Atzili: Mm-hmm. No, 100% dependency on them. They stored saying, you recognize, Our job is to guard you and preserve you protected and wholesome till you’re launched in a deal. I imply, they stored saying that from day one.
Rosin: Mm-hmm.
[Music]
Atzili: So we’d fall asleep actually early, like seven. After which I’d get up in the midst of the night time at, like, 1 or 2 a.m. And, you recognize, funnily sufficient, these hours that everyone was sleeping and that I used to be, like, left alone with my ideas had been type of peaceable hours. Like, I believed lots about my kids and about Aviv and about one million issues, like what I’m going to do after I get again, like imagining what my youngsters had been doing and, like, attempting to ship them vibes that I’m alive, and you recognize, I’m okay. I’m okay. They’d rise up to wish at, like, between 4 and 5 within the morning.
So like, I stored ready for the—to listen to the muezzin calling all people to prayer. In order that was like the start of the day. Our days had been crammed with, you recognize, tiny duties, plenty of ready, and, like, the ready was a factor in itself.
Rosin: Ready for what?
Atzili: Ready for our meal. Ready till the time when it received darkish and we turned the lights on. That was, like, a giant factor day by day. So, like, we’d flip the lights on at, like, 5 o’clock, and we referred to as that “noor time.” Noor is gentle in Arabic. And, like, from 3 o’clock we’d say, Okay, in two hours we’re going to show the lights on. I imply, stuff like that.
Rosin: And did you study something about them?
Atzili: Yeah, yeah. We spoke very freely. They advised us about their households and about their lives, their common lives. We spoke lots about politics. I requested them why that they had joined Hamas and never one of many different organizations, what they thought would occur within the close to future, how they thought that the struggle wanted to finish, if it wanted to finish. I spoke lots about historical past. They know lots about Israel.
Rosin: And what was the model of Israel that received mirrored again to you? Since you most likely don’t usually hear a Gazan’s imaginative and prescient of you and your nation in such fullness.
Atzili: By no means.
Rosin: So what was the mirror? Like, what did you see?
Atzili: Nicely, a really, very spiritual, fundamentalist, messianic worldview. They stored saying that from the river to the ocean, it ought to all be a Palestinian state, and that every one the Jews ought to go away.
Rosin: Mm-hmm.
Atzili: And there was a distinction between the 2 of them. Considered one of them was, I believe, extra spiritual, was much less keen to compromise. And one mentioned, you recognize, Nicely, yeah, possibly a two-state resolution must be an answer, at the least briefly, till we conquer the world and all people converts to Islam.
Rosin: So that is fascinating since you not have a way of like, “Gazans” as a monolith. I imply, that’s, I believe, a breaking level if you begin to see individuals as different.
Atzili: Yeah. Yeah, for certain.
Rosin: And the way far did your conversations go? Like, did you’ve gotten sufficient braveness to ask them these sorts of questions? Like, why would you kill somebody?
Atzili: Yeah. Yeah, we spoke about it very freely. They both had been unbelievable actors or they actually, actually didn’t know what had occurred. As a result of, like, once we advised them that there had been looters in Nir Ouncesthe lady that I used to be with, her jewellery had been stolen from her and been taken off of her when she’d arrived in Gaza—they had been shocked. They usually had been like, This could by no means have occurred.
Like, they stored saying, We don’t perceive why you had been taken hostage. You’re ladies. We don’t battle ladies. Ladies shouldn’t be concerned in struggle. In some unspecified time in the future, photos of all of the hostages had been launched, and certainly one of them mentioned, I’m shocked on the variety of kids, on the variety of aged individuals, on the variety of ladies. I didn’t assume it was like that.
Rosin: Mm-hmm. What in regards to the killing? Like, did they contemplate {that a} obligatory a part of the messianic imaginative and prescient? Like, That’s simply struggle, so long as it’s males?
Atzili: Yeah, they mentioned males are—
Rosin: Honest recreation.
Atzili: Yeah.
Rosin: Did you study something that stunned you in these conversations?
Atzili: Not likely.
Rosin: Do you assume they realized something that stunned them?
Atzili: I believe so.
Rosin: Like what?
Atzili: I believe they didn’t perceive, or they didn’t know, how Jewish Israelis noticed our connection to Israel. I believe that they kind of felt that, to us, we may go anyplace, and what many Israelis say in regards to the Palestinians: Oh, they’ve so many international locations. Why don’t they go some other place? And no, I imply, they don’t wish to be Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians. They’re Palestinians from right here.
And I believe they kind of had the identical—they associated to Jewish Israelis in the identical method, and: Why don’t you—they stored asking me—why don’t you return to America? Why did your mother and father ever come to Israel? Why do you are feeling that this place belongs to you? Which was very, very unusual.
Rosin: However it’s the elemental factor. Like, if everybody may notice there are two individuals and each these individuals aren’t going anyplace. Like, if everybody simply accepted that truth.
Atzili: Yeah, then issues can be simpler.
Rosin: Issues can be simpler.
Atzili: So there was plenty of dialogue about that.
Rosin: Mm-hmm.
Atzili: They requested me in regards to the Holocaust.
Rosin: What did they assume? Oh, nicely, that’s an excellent query for you.
Atzili: Yeah.
Rosin: What concepts did they’ve in regards to the Holocaust?
Atzili: They didn’t actually know. They knew, like—they’d heard about Hitler. They knew that there had been ghettos. However they didn’t actually know what had occurred. In order that they requested. I defined, and so they mentioned, It’s horrible. I believe, Yeah, it’s fairly horrible.
Rosin: That is so fascinating since you, basically, at the moment are confronted with these fascinating and wealthy conversations with people who find themselves your captors, who change into very educated and converse English. There’s numerous kind of protecting, female power. Simply—it’s so sophisticated.
Atzili: It’s. It’s mind-blowing how sophisticated it’s and the way troublesome it’s to kind of attempt to manage this expertise and cope with it.
I didn’t actually know what I used to be coming again to. And in addition that’s been very troublesome, to cope with the results of what had occurred whereas I used to be gone.
[Music]
Atzili: I used to be overjoyed after I was advised that I used to be going residence, however we mentioned goodbye. , I mentioned, Thanks for taking such excellent care of me, for shielding me. , for over 50 days, there have been two guards, and we mentioned goodbye to certainly one of them.
Solely certainly one of them took us to the automotive that was taking us to the subsequent place that we— they took us to Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis. And from there we had been launched—I was launched. The lady that was with me, she was launched the subsequent day. However so, like, once we had been leaving the residence, it was a bit of bit chaotic, and we didn’t say goodbye to certainly one of them.
And the opposite one walked us down into the road. And for over 50 days, I imply, they—he made such a aware effort to not contact us in any respect, not even mistakenly. I imply, he wouldn’t hand me a cup of tea or a plate or something. He’d put it down. I imply, no contact—no bodily contact in any way.
And, you recognize, after I mentioned goodbye to him and thanks, he went like this: He patted me on the shoulder and mentioned, you recognize, Good luck. And I hope that your loved ones is protected, and I hope that every little thing shall be okay with you. And you recognize, it was shifting. It was a second with this one that actually, I imply, may have finished something.
He didn’t need to—I imply, he had a job to maintain me alive and kind of comparatively in good situation. However, I imply, he may have finished something. He didn’t need to be good to me. He didn’t have to speak to me. He didn’t need to, I imply—one million little gestures that simply made it bearable.
[Music]
Rosin[narrating]: After plenty of lobbying by her household and the assistance of the U.S. authorities, Liat received out. In Gaza, in the meantime, the state of affairs solely received worse. Israelis bombed Khan Younis and the Nasser Hospital till it wasn’t functioning. In Israel, Liat returned to her personal new horrible actuality.
Atzili: After I used to be launched, we had been notified that Aviv had been killed. It wasn’t identified till then. And, I imply, that kind of grew to become the primary problem.
Rosin: Mm-hmm.
Atzili: As an alternative of coping with the entire, you recognize, being-held-hostage problem, you recognize, I’ve been—
Rosin: Grieving. Yeah.
Atzili: Grieving widow.
Rosin: Yeah.
Atzili: And I believe it’s troublesome for some individuals to grasp. I imply, there’s been a lot loss of life, and we’ve simply misplaced so many individuals that it’s so exhausting to understand the loss. I imply, there’s so many troublesome experiences that you just simply have to decide on what to concentrate on, as a result of you possibly can’t cope with every little thing.
So for me, it’s been—I imply, the primary factor that I’ve been coping with is shedding Aviv, who was an exquisite, great, great particular person.
Rosin: He appears prefer it from the pictures.
Atzili: Yeah.
Rosin: You guys have a “We had been made for one another” vibe within the pictures I’ve seen of you.
Atzili: Yeah. We’ve identified one another—I imply, we knew one another from a really younger age. I imply, we’d been collectively for a few years, although we’re nonetheless younger. I’m nonetheless younger. He’ll all the time be younger.
I believe he’s—he had a vital function in the neighborhood. And I believe so many individuals miss him, and so many individuals cherished him that, in some ways, it’s comforting and reassuring. And it feels actually good to know that he’s so missed by so many individuals, however it’s simply—
Rosin: Proper. He’s nonetheless not right here. He’s nonetheless not right here.
Atzili: And the president truly mentioned—it was fascinating—he mentioned, However you speak to him on a regular basis, proper? And, you recognize, You talk with him, and he’s right here with you. And that’s so true.
Rosin: Wow. I’m—that’s wonderful. That’s what the president mentioned.
I used to be going to say, one of many odd issues should have been that you just got here again from probably the most surprising, uncommon expertise of your life and couldn’t share it with him, like, couldn’t share the small print of it or what occurred or course of it. It should have been the primary huge factor in your life that you just needed to course of by yourself as an grownup, you recognize? Which is difficult. I’m glad you’ve gotten buddies.
Atzili: Yeah. I’ve great buddies and an exquisite household. Yeah.
[Music]
Rosin[narrating]: After the break, extra about that go to with President Biden, who’s famously great at speaking to individuals deep in grief.
Liat was on the lookout for one thing in that assembly, one thing she was not getting from Israeli political leaders.
[Music]
Rosin: So you might be right here in Washington and never in Israel. Why?
Atzili: Nicely, plenty of my members of the family, together with my mother and father, had been very, very energetic in—I don’t understand how I’d describe it, precisely—the marketing campaign, battle to convey me again residence. So that is largely a visit right here to thank all of the individuals who had been concerned in bringing me again residence.
And I didn’t actually know what to anticipate, however one factor that’s been on my thoughts lots these previous few days is the private connection. I believe he confirmed an enormous quantity of accountability in direction of me and my well-being and my household, and that’s one thing that’s very, very totally different to Israeli politics and the best way that authorities officers relate to the residents in Israel.
Rosin: Attention-grabbing. So do you imply in tone, just like the phrases he mentioned, or do you imply one thing you felt from him?
Atzili: He knew my story. And I believe that he felt a connection, or made me really feel that we now have a connection, in each of us shedding our spouses. He spoke lots about his first spouse and in regards to the kids that he misplaced. And he gave me recommendation.
Rosin: What was the recommendation?
Atzili: He mentioned, you recognize, A day will come if you discuss your husband that you just’ll smile earlier than you cry.
Rosin: Aww.
Atzili: Yeah.
[Music]
Rosin: It’s fascinating that you just distinction it with constituents’ relationship with their management in Israel as a result of I do usually assume, at the least traditionally, of Israeli leaders kind of coming to funerals. Or, you recognize, there’s a model of kind of displaying up for individuals who have sacrificed for Israel.
I imply, possibly it’s totally different on this present state of affairs, however I do consider that as being a practice for Israeli leaders.
Atzili: Not now. Not in these instances. There was a shirking of accountability.
Rosin: Mm-hmm.
Atzili: The Israeli authorities, I believe Netanyahu and others—not everybody—have been very, very actively attempting to position blame for what occurred on the army and the intelligence. It’s unusual that for lots of people, October 7 grew to become every little thing.
And we’ve kind of forgotten that there’s a really lengthy historical past earlier than that. Israel was in a really, very troublesome place for a very long time earlier than October 7. I imply, I dwell within the western Negev, what’s generally known as the Gaza Envelope; I don’t like to make use of that phrase. However for the final 20 years, we’ve been dwelling in a actuality of neglect by the federal government. I imply, we’ve been—my kibbutz has been hit by missiles and rockets for years, and with no actual resolution to that. And, I imply, I believe that the answer is an settlement that everyone can dwell with, Israelis and Palestinians.
I don’t assume that the answer is struggle or some kind of armed battle that may resolve this problem. I believe it will probably solely be resolved by discussions. And the federal government that was elected, it’s been very right-wing. Most people that dwell in kibbutzim in my space disagreed with the federal government’s insurance policies and had been very energetic within the protests towards the federal government the previous few years, and I believe that that’s mirrored on how the federal government’s associated to the truth that the settlements of the western Negev had been those that had been hit the toughest by this assault.
Rosin: I imply, that’s totally different than, I believe, the best way an American political state of affairs would unfold. Like, it does appear uncommon that there wouldn’t be, you recognize, a private type of attain out or connection.
Atzili: No private attain out. I imply, there are individuals who have reached out.
Rosin: However you’re saying you haven’t gotten any name or any equal of what you simply had with Biden.
Atzili: No.
Rosin: Now, the president referred to as you a survivor. Does that really feel like the correct phrase to you? Like, does that sit nicely with you? Like, I’m a survivor. Does that really feel right?
Atzili: It doesn’t—it feels unusual. I don’t like to consider myself as a sufferer or a survivor. However I believe that, I imply, I’m a sufferer, and I’m a survivor. And I believe that if earlier than October 7, peace was an possibility, now there’s no selection. This can’t be the best way we dwell within the Center East.
Rosin: I imply, you had firsthand expertise of private struggling. I’m wondering if on the opposite aspect you noticed struggling. I imply, it sounds such as you had been in a comparatively snug place, however was there?
Atzili: The final couple of days I used to be in Nasser Hospital, and there have been hundreds of refugees and, you recognize, I may see the situations that they had been dwelling in, and it was horrible, horrible.
Rosin: And in your head, did you consider that as one thing that Israelis had precipitated?
Atzili: In fact.
Rosin: I imply, I’ll let you know, I’ve spoken—I converse to Israelis. And since I dwell within the U.S., and kind of, like, we now have our social media—we see, you recognize, photos of Gaza, Gaza, Gaza on a regular basis or protests, and there are generational variations and all that. A number of Israelis don’t see the images. Like, nicely into the struggle, individuals would inform me, Oh, we don’t—it’s not on the TV, and we don’t see it within the newspapers.
Atzili: It’s not. It’s not. However, I imply, I noticed this with my very own non-seeing eyes as a result of I didn’t have glasses, however I do learn Al Jazeera—earlier than October 7 additionally. I do learn not-Israeli newspapers. I do attempt to get as large an image as I can of issues that curiosity me. And, clearly, Hamas is answerable for this struggle as a lot as Israel is. However, I imply, after I noticed these photos—this was two months into the struggle—to me it was apparent that it may have ended earlier than.
And, after all, now the state of affairs is even worse. And there’s completely no cause, in my view, for this struggle to have been occurring for therefore lengthy. I imply, I believe a ceasefire—a everlasting ceasefire that will have ensured the return of the hostages—the rebuilding of Gaza, the rebuilding of the kibbutzim in Israel, and talks to achieve a long-lasting settlement ought to have occurred months in the past.
[Music]
Rosin: What do you must work out in your personal life? Like, what are the issues that you must work out for your self?
Atzili: When it’ll be potential, I wish to return to dwell on Nir Oz. Nir Ounceswas destroyed, actually. My home burned down, so I don’t have anyplace to dwell there now, or I wish to return to the Negev.
However I’m unsure that that’s what I wish to do. It’s a thought. Like—I went again to work, and I completed the college yr with my college students. And that was actually good, and it had, like, an enormous therapeutic impact. However I don’t assume that I’ve to determine if I wish to return to educating full-time or not.
Rosin: Mm-hmm. Since you want time to determine what simply occurred to you.
Atzili: Yeah, and kind of some issues that appeared actually, actually vital or had been simple, like connecting with college students, connecting with mother and father, now appear to be an enormous effort, like even one thing that I’m not able to doing proper now. So it’s lots to determine. I’m concerned within the planning of how Nir Ouncesshall be rebuilt.
Rosin: Oh.
Atzili: That’s one thing that I used to be by no means serious about. And now it’s like, I took and was given the accountability to consider Nir Ouncess story, in regards to the narrative, about how we wish to bear in mind what occurred, how we wish—so it’s extremely fascinating.
Rosin: I’m glad it’s you as a result of, studying about Nir Oz, I used to be a bit of apprehensive that it will simply change into a type of website that individuals would go to, like a Holocaust-memorial website, and it will by no means have a rebirth. It felt prefer it may go in that route, however it sounds prefer it would possibly go in a distinct route.
Atzili: If I’ve something to do with it, and I’ll, it won’t go in that route.
Rosin: Good. Good. I imply, I hate to trivialize something. And I by no means go within the route of a cheerful ending in any respect, and this isn’t a cheerful ending. However it’s, like, shoots of rebirth, plenty of various things occurring, and that’s, I believe, surprising.
Atzili: It’s a hopeful ending.
I’ve been pondering, possibly I ought to relocate to—possibly I ought to come again to the states.
Rosin: Critically? No. You’re simply saying that.
Atzili: It’s tempting, however—
Rosin: For security causes?
Atzili: Yeah, yeah. Israel might be one of the crucial sophisticated locations on the earth to dwell. And it’s exhausting. And it was earlier than October 7. However I believe that we’re so rooted within the place.
And actually, I believe it’s a bit of little bit of a cliché, however it’s very troublesome for me to surrender on the place that Aviv misplaced his life to guard, so—
Rosin: Yeah. Yeah. I can’t think about.
[Music]
Rosin: This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. It was engineered by Rob Smierciak and fact-checked by Sara Krolewski. Claudine Ebeid is the manager producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor. I’m Hanna Rosin, and thanks for listening.
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